BLIND ALLEY; Manufrance records exist - see last post.This post is a follow-on to two lines below. With Mournetas' designation of Robust per model years, and a number of dating criteria (see below) a dating graph can be created. (There are dozens of other "date markers" - introduction of the Supra for instance, date receipts etc. Welcome additional comments).
I have not gone into detail on these guns and I'm not trying to prove a point. For the same reason I haven't bothered to build a database of photos. Here are a few SN guns and their models with some very preliminary dating.
Study has been updated now assuming that Model 32's began to be built in 1926 per the alleged Manufrance chart below; still looking for a definitive marker gun between 1925 and 1931:
I'll take a look at some conclusions once more data is accumulated but this graph only needs about 20 data points.
Info on "Bis" from BBS: "Now back to the special proofmark. Sometimes during manufacture some guns were chosen as special ones called "Bis" and were give to their best engravers and fitted with stocks made from their nicest blanks. The guns thusly finished"
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=232606&page=allRobust Short File: - 880,000? from 1913 to 1980 (per FAB500).
YEAR. . SN'S of produced guns. . . . . . . . . .Number of Guns(All hypothetical until more data is gathered):- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1913 Begin Production- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -1913. . 0000 - 2000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2,000 - First Model 1, 1-Bis, 2, 2-bis, 4, 4-bis, 5, 5-bis, 7, 7bis1914. . 2000 - 3000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1,000Aug 1914 end of "bis" series- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Aug 1914 - WWI - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Nov 1918 - WWI over- - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - 1919. . 3000 - 5000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2,000Model 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 production resumed.1920. . 5000 - 7000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. . . 2,000..5219. . . . .3. . . . . .https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/manufrance-robust-no3-12-ga-double-shotgun-969-c-bd04795913
1921. . 7000 - 9000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2,000Model 8, 9 dropped..7089. . . . .7. . . . . .https://www.audap-associes.com/lot/99154/13299268-fusil-de-chasse-robust-n-7-deu
..7953. . . . .6. . . . . .https://cdn.drouot.com/d/catalogue?path=Demaigret/08072009/demaigret-080709-BD.pdf
..8903. . . . .3. . . . . .6.5 chambers; YouTube video
1922. . 9000 - 13000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4,000 Model 12,14 added..9222. . . . .?. . . . . .https://www.coutaubegarie.com/lot/16069/2901175-fusil-de-chasse-robust-a-doubl
.
12907. . . . .7. . . . . .Delivered 11 Sep 1922 per a scrap of MF records found by Fab.
1923. . 13000 - 33000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .20,000First Models with "A" or "AS" after the number.23698. . . . .2. . . . . .6.5 chambers:
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...odel-2-16-ga-french.cfm?gun_id=100584177.27772. . . . . 6
.34324. . . . .28-E (sic). .https://ssaagunsales.com/listing/24450
1924. . 33000 - 54000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .21,000- Model 12, 14 dropped- last year of Model 1,2,3,4,5,5S,6,7,7S,7AS,10,10S,10AS,11.39656. . . . .6. . . . . .https://www.palombe.com/forum/message.php?id=304286&rep=21
.41064. . . . .?. . . . . .https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=492905
.42907. . . . .7. . . . . .https://www.gunauction.com/buy/7909252
.43847. . . . .5. . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/FUSIL-MANUFRANCE-ROBUST-N-5-calibre-12-65-item-10654246.html
.46163. . . . .1. . . . . . Last known Model 1 made in 1924;
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/im-curious-about-my-robust-shotgun.430707/.48221. . . . .5. . . . . .https://drouot.com/en/l/17312336--fusil-juxtapose-robust-n-5-ca
.52XXX. . . . .6. . . . . .https://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-254382.html
.
53852. . . . .4. . . . . .https://www.poussecornet.com/lot/117423/15759345-fusil-de-chasse-robust-calibresearch=&
1925. . 54000 - 63000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .9,000 - Mournetas: First Model 20,22,24,26,26ES,28,28S,28E,28ES,30R,30ES
- Manufrance: Model 32E, 32ES, 34E, 34ES also made- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1926. MF begins to proof in factory - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1926. . 63000 - 74000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .11,000[/u]
- Manufrance: Model , 30, 30S, 32, 32S, 34, 36, 36E introduced68450. . . . .20. . . . . .https://drouot.com/en/l/19531322-shotgun-robust-n20-gauge-1665
1927. . 74000 - 86000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12,00074573. . . . .20. . . . . .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtpAlvh58xs
1928. . 86000 - 98000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12,000- Manufrance: Model 28 dropped. 92499. . . . .26. . . . . .https://drouot.com/en/l/23273997-fusil-juxtapose-manufrance-robust-modele-26-calibre-12-65
. 96542. . . . .30. . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/manufrance-robust-n-30-item-10596338.html
1929. . 98000 - 110000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12,000- Mournetas: Model 7 reappears
- Manufrance: Model 34ES and 36ES introduced[/color]
.
98142. . . . .32. . . . . . .Saint-Etienne(SE) proof on tubes; MF factory arrow on flats;
https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/robust-no-32-16-ga-value-and-age.269622/. 98258. . . . . . . . . . . . .BBS Builder
. 99439. . . . .28-E. . . . .https://drouot.com/en/l/21284159-fusil-de-chasse-robust-modele-ndeg-28-e-a-ejecteurs-calibre
. 99916. . . . .32-S. . . . .
https://www.dogsanddoubles.com/tag/manufrance/**101179. . . . .22. . . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/Robust-Manu-France-calibre-16-65-item-11190088.html - (
Seller claims gun was numbered in February 19271030xx. . . . .32-ES. . . . .BBS Buckstix
105874. . . . .????. . . . . .https://www.gunsamerica.com/927688073/MANUFRANCE-ROBUST-12-GA.htm
106688. . . . .26. . . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/ROBUST-12-70-N-26-item-11137354.html
108408. . . . .26. . . . . . .labeled L.Gacon;
https://www.naturabuy.fr/Elegant-ju...-GACON-crosse-anglaise-item-9783533.html108682. . . . .26. . . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/ROBUST-12-70-N-26-item-11137354.html
1930. . 110000 - 122,000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12,000- Mournetas: First and only year of Model 32.32S,32ES,34E,34ES,36E,36ES
- Manufrance: see above for information that contradicts this.110188. . . . .???. . . . . . .https://drouot.com/en/l/18870298-shotgun-robust-model-supra-manufacture-francaise-darmes-et
114214. . . . .32
114551. . . . .32-S. . . . . .BBS Ivan Bulgaria
115123. . . . .32. . . . . . .1930-31 only
1931. . 1228000 - 134000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12,000Only year SN's included both two and three digit numbers127313. . . . .26-E/238. .
https://www.naturabuy.fr/VDS-FUSIL-...UST-238-26E-MANUFRANCE-item-9860071.html131467. . . . .32. . . . . . .https://drouot.com/en/l/18037707-jagdgewehr-robust-manufacture-francaise-darmes-et-cycles-de
133383. . . . .26-E/238. . BBS nek69.
1932. . 134000 - 146000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12,000First year for stand-alone three-digit model numbers: 202, 208, 214, 220, 220S,226,226S,232,232S,236,238S,244,244S,250,250S,256S,259,262,262S,268145211. . . . . 32. . . . . .https://cdn.drouot.com/d/catalogue?path=220/121724/catalogue.pdf
145307. . . . .234. . . . . .https://www.dorleac-dorleac.com/arme/robust-mod-234/?lang=en
1933. . 146000 - 158000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12,000148346. . . . . . . . . . . . . BBS billwolfe;
1934. . 158000 - 170000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12,000two and three digit numbers continue to be listed160209. . . . .214. . . . . .(marker 24/214 on receiver) .https://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/saint%20etienne/a%20manufrance%20fusil%20robust%20fr.htm
162581. . . . .262. . . . . .
https://www.gazette-drouot.com/en/lots/5040007-fusil-de-chasse-robust-262----Lot n° 364
163508. . . . .22/208. . . .https://www.guns.com/firearms/shotguns/side-by-side/manufrance-robust-16-ga-side-by-side-2-28-barrel-used?p=699583&soldout=1
166216. . . . . . . . . . . . .Dated Feb 5, 1932 on butt stock
166249. . . . .214. . . . . .http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/saint%20etienne/a%20manufrance%20fusil%20robust%20gb.htm
1935. . 170000 - 182000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12,000176829. . . . .214. . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/ROBUST-N-214-item-10244635.html
177058. . . . .220. . . . . .https://cdn.drouot.com/d/catalogue?path=380/97192/ListeArmes24-06-19.pdf
180542. . . . .220. . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/ROBUST-220-MANUFRANCE-12-65-1-sans-prix-reserve--item-11411828.html
1936. . 182000 - 194000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12,000184688. . . . .226. . . . . .BBS Greybeardtmm3
186711. . . . .208. . . . . .https://cdn.drouot.com/d/catalogue?path=405/92252/CatalogueclientARMESDECHASSE-venteonline.pdf
186929. . . . .238. . . . . .https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/shotguns/manufrance-shotguns/manufrance-deluxe-robust-boxlock-16ga-s-s-shotgun.cfm?gun_id=102263937
188477. . . . .244. . . . . .https://www.gunbroker.com/item/1019628780
189139. . . . .226. . . . . .BBS GLS
191005. . . . .232. . . . .https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/fusil-robust-no-232-manufrance.324979/?post_id=2765732&nested_view=1&sortby=oldest#post-2765732
191339. . . . .244. . . . . .https://www.coutaubegarie.com/en/lot/4147/916405-fusil-de-chasse-robust-244-calsearch=robust&sort=num&
192235. . . . .244. . . . . .https://www.gazette-drouot.com/lots/5789497-fusil-de-chasse-robust-brevete-sgdg----
192303. . . . .250. . . . . .https://www.tircollection.com/t44617-vieux-juxtapose-francais
1937. . 194000 - 202500. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .8,500- three month strike at Manufrance- First year of Model "Robust-Ideal"; These appear to have used a 4 digit SN.
- 274, 280, 286 et 292 added; these were Robust-Ideals1938. . 202500 - 214500. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .12,000208925. . . . .208. . . . . .https://drouot.com/en/l/17441202-shotgun-robust-manufrance-sain
1939. . 216000 - 223000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7,000 - France declared war on 3 Sep 1939 2 days after Germany invaded Poland
- In 1939, the RI (Robust-Ideal) was made in grades 268, 274, 280, 286 and 292 - Wildcattle
- Ideal production fell by 1/3 in 1939 - a model for this estimate for Robusts in '39.214595. . . . .208. . . . . .https://www.tircollection.com/t37610-robust-n-208-cal-12
216641. . . . .208-S . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/Robuste-n-208-cal-12-item-10958071.html
218424. . . . .208. . . . . .pre WWII
1940. .223000 - 225000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,000 It is hard to imagine that France did not almost immediately mobilize Manufrance factories for war production but it appears some sporting production continued. 225668. . . . .220. . . . . .proof certificate;
https://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/saint%20etienne/a%20manufrance%20fusil%20robust%20gb.htm- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sep 1939 - WWII - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1940-42 -
Some limited production continued during the Vichy years per FAB500
- Manufrance remained open during the war; what was produced is not mentioned; it probably was producing war material for the German occupiers as all other factories in Europe did.- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nov 1942 - Vichy France occupied- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - May 1945 - WWII over- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1946. . 225000 - 228000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3,000- Only Model 222 (Mournetas).
- Below internet blog claims production of Robusts did not resume until 1948;
- Ideal production reportedly resumed in 1946 (with actions being made outside of Saint-Etienne) supporting Mournetas' information.1947. . 228000 - 231000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3,000- Only Model 222 (Mournetas).
- Below internet blog claims production of Robusts did not resume until 19481948. . 231000 - 234000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3,000- Only Model 222 produced per Mournetas.
- 222, 228, 234, 240, 246 production began again below internet blog1949. . 234000 - 265000? . . . . . . . . . . . . . .31,000? 222,228,234,240,246 production resumed per Mournetas;
- Ideal actions began to be produced again in Saint-Etienne; presumably Robusts as well again supporting Mournetas' information on Robust production.
- begin use of the automatic sling "bretelle automatique"?235450. . . . . . . . . . . . . Purchased in 1949 – per existing receipt
240637. . . . .222. . . . . .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtpAlvh58xs
248494. . . . .222. . . . . .https://www.loupescadou.com/produit/manufrance-robust-222-calibre-16-65-2/
256899. . . . .222. . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/ROBUST-222-item-8466537.html
263358. . . . .222. . . . . .https://drouot.com/fr/l/22132768-fusil-juxtapose-manu-france-robust-type-222-en-calibre-16-65
263618. . . . .222. . . . . .https://www.vasari-auction.com/en/lot/144559/22778864-manufrance-robust-rifle-model-no-222-caliber-16-65-70-cm
1950. . 265000 - 305000. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .40,000 "S" models for the above reintroduced "L" models for the above reintroduced265804. . . . .234. . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/Manufrance-Robust-234-item-11353526.html
275322. . . . .222-S. . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/Robust-222-s-item-8939285.html
277955. . . . .222. . . . . .https://www.vasari-auction.com/en/lot/125263/18037683-shotgun-robust-manufrance-mode
290321. . . . .240. . . . . .https://drouot.com/en/l/17053748--fusil-de-chasse-robust-manufr
299725. . . . .228. . . . . .https://drouot.com/en/l/20939887-robust-model-228-1265-caliber
300923. . . . .228. . . . . .https://www.thierrydemaigret.com/lot/9200/1830997-fusil-de-chasse-robust-de-manusearch=&
301406. . . . .222. . . . . .https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/manufrance-no-222-robust-boxlock-sxs-shotgun-1263-c-91d45f6bed
303006. . . . .242. . . . . .https://corsicarms.1fr1.net/t27248-robust-manufrance-n-246
304968. . . . .290. . . . . .28 Dec 1950; MF record scrap obtained by Fab;
1951-62. . 305000 -533000? . . . . . . . . . . . . . .19,000 per year?311800. . . . .234. . . . . .BBS RedofTx
330390. . . . .222. . . . .https://www.progun.de/haendlershop~waffenhandel_harth/langwaffen~flinten/82dfw6m1_manufrance_robust_-_16-65.html
346443. . . . .222. . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/Occasion-Manufrance-Robust-222-item-10156369.html
355382. . . . .240. . . . . .https://www.thierrydemaigret.com/lot/89981/8559933-fusil-de-chasse-robust-de-manu
414086. . . . .234. . . . . .RARISSIMA Espingarda Saint Etienne ROBUST 234
415268. . . . .234L. . . . .https://www.vasari-auction.com/en/lot/125263/18037699-shotgun-robust-manufrance-saint-etienne-model-ndeg-234-l
454886. . . . .234. . . . . .https://gunandknifeclassics.gr/manufrance-robust-%CE%BC%CE%BF%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BF-234/
487709. . . . .222L. . . . .Youtube video
494698. . . . .222. . . . . .https://www.centre-militaria.com/Fusil-Manufrance-Robust-222L-cal-12-70-canons-76cm-p-1795-c-27.html
504711. . . . .234. . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/robuste-prestige-item-9254906.html
1963-71. . 533000 - 704000? . . . . . . . . . . . . . .19,000 per year?- Model 252, 252S added
- Strikes in 1967, 1968601565. . . . .246. . . . . .https://www.centre-militaria.com/Fusil-Manufrance-Robust-246-luxe-cal-16-etat-neuf-p-1478-c-27.html
646678. . . . .220. . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/fusil-robust-220-calibre-12-item-11252012.html
651911. . . . .220-S. . . .
https://aveyronpechechasseloisirs.c...nufrance-ideal-supra-12x70-occasion.html1972-75. . 704000 - 780000? . . . . . . . . . . . . . .19,000 per year?Model 248, 248S added; 252 and 252S dropped745307. . . . .234. . . . . .https://www.dorleac-dorleac.com/arme/robust-mod-234/?lang=en
770308. . . . .234. . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/robust-238-cal-12-item-11308937.html
1976-80. . 776000 - 890000? . . . . . . . . . . . . . .21,000per year76 - Model 254, 254S added; 248, 248S dropped77 - Model 254S dropped80 - Last year of Robust production per Mournetas' 780389. . . . .254. . . . . .https://drouot.com/fr/l/13522523-fusil-robust-calibre-1270-mode
https://www.thierrydemaigret.com/lot/108228/13522523-fusil-robust-calibre-1270-modesearch=&784xxx. . . . .254. . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/Robust-item-11301718.html
785257. . . . .254. . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/Robust-254-item-11301803.html
801189. . . . .238/26E. . .Proof house certificate;
https://www.naturabuy.fr/VDS-FUSIL-...UST-238-26E-MANUFRANCE-item-9860071.html819273. . . . .254. . . . . .https://www.naturabuy.fr/Robust-254-Cal-12-70-item-11096245.html
859945. . . . .224. . . . . .https://drouot.com/en/l/16410432-fusil-de-chasse-robust-modele
861076. . . . .221
875126. . . . .224. . . . . .https://drouot.com/en/l/15854378-shotgun-robust-model-n-224-man
885570. . . . .221. . . . . .https://www.cappelaere-prunaux.com/en/lot/87153/7895414-fusil-robust-221-jaspe-cal-12
888890. . . . .????. . . . . .https://www.tircollection.com/t37610-robust-n-208-cal-12 (last SN found by Mournetas)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 1980? - End of Robust production - - - - - - - - - If members of this board come up with an SN for a limited production Robust or one which might be near the end or beginning of a production run, please post it. I'll figure out the graph.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =This chart differs from Mournetas in some respects:
https://blog.airetnature.fr/le-robust-de-la-manu-legende-de-la-chasse-francaise/À titre indicatif, voici les années de fabrication des différents modèles commercialisés (source MANUFRANCE) :
N° 1 à 7 : 1913 à 1924 (le 7S n’est sorti qu’en 1924).
N° 8 et 9 : 1914 à 1921.
N° 10 et 11 : 1914 à 1924.
N° 12 et 14 : 1922-1923.
N° 20, 22, 24, 26 : 1925 à 1930 (y compris versions 26E et ES, 1931 pour le 26S) .
N° 28 : 1925 à 1927 (y compris versions 28E et ES).
N° 30 : 1926 à 1930.
N° 30E et ES : 1925 à 1930.
N° 32 et 32S : 1926 à 1930.
N° 32E et 32ES : 1925 à 1930.
N° 34E : 1926 à 1930.
N° 34ES : 1929 à 1930.
N° 36E : 1926 à 1930.
N° 36ES : 1929 à 1930N° 202 (remplaçant du 20) : 1931 à 1939.
N° 208 (remplaçant du 22) : 1931 à 1939.
N° 214 (remplaçant du 24) : 1931 à 1936.
N° 220 (remplaçant du 26) : 1931 à 1939, puis 1968 à 1971.
N° 221 : 1971 à 1979 (version S uniquement fabriquée en 1972).
N° 222 (remplaçant du 202) : 1948 à 1968, puis 1950 à 1980 (intégrant versions L et S).
N° 224 : 1963 à 1980.
N° 226 (remplaçant du 30) : 1931 à 1939 (sauf version S, 1936).
N° 228 (remplaçant du 208) : 1948 à 1967.
N° 232 et 232S (remplaçant des 32 et 32S) : 1931 à 1936.
N° 234 (remplaçant du 214) : 1948 à 1968, puis 1969 à 1975 (intégrant versions L et S).
N° 238 (remplaçant des 26E et ES) : 1931 à 1936.
N° 240 : 1948 à 1965.
N° 244 et 244S (remplaçant des 30E et 30ES) : 1931 à 1939 (sauf version S, 1936).
N° 246 : 1948 à 1968, puis 1964 et 1971 (intégrant version S).
N° 250 et 250S (remplaçants des 32E et 32ES) : 1931 à 1939 (sauf version S, 1936).
N° 252 et 252S : 1963 à 1970.
N° 256 et 256S (remplaçants des 34E et 34ES) : 1931 à 1939 (sauf version S, 1936).
N° 262 et 262S (remplaçants des 36E et 36ES) : 1931 à 1934.
N° 268, 274, 280, 286 et 292 : 1937 à 1961.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =Current Graph points
1913. . . . . . . . . . 01
1914, Aug. . . . . 3000. - Production suspended: SN unknown
1918, Nov. . . . . 3000. - Production resumed, SN unknown
1922, 11 Sep. . .12901. – Per a scrap of records found by Fab
1924, Dec?. . . . 52000. – last single digit model number
1930, Jan?. . . . 98142. – 1st SN in model 32
. . . . Dec? . . . 116113. – last SN in model 32
1931. Apr?. . . .127313. - First Double SN
. . . . Aug?. . . .133383. - Last double SN
1940. . . . . . . .225668. - Last gun produced before shut-down of WWII
1945. . . . . . . .226000. - End WWII, taking into account some production during the war.
1946. . . . . . . .226000. - Resumption of production?
1949. . . . . . . .235450. – Purchased in 1949 per receipt
1950, 27 Dec. . 304968. – Close to last SN of 1950, per scrap of records found by Fab
1976. . . . . . . .780389. - 1st 254
1980. . . . . . . .888890. - Last known SN
