Steve, yes from what I have learned the last few days is that the French/Euro 12mm shot shells from way back when I guess about the mid to late 1870's-1880's lead to the 410 but the Cane I have takes a thinner rim than a regular 410 shell from what I found so far. The rim on the early 12mm shot shells is evidently only about .048 thick +/- so I may end up making some cases out of 444 Marlin cases if I can't purchase some thing in a 12mm with that size of a rim thickness. Thank You for the heads up!