Interesting. Mike, you really think that Uggies and Huglus are better built than Foxes? Time to sell your Fox, I guess, and buy one of each.
Let's quantify the difference in recoil from when your Fox was built to current day loads. If it was a 2 5/8" gun, max available load was 3 DE, 1 1/8 oz load--1250 fps. That's the same load as the current Winchester AA Super-Handicap. Recoil energy, in an 8 lb gun: 22.7 ft/lbs. If you happen to own a vintage gun (pre-WWII) with factory 2 3/4" chambers, the max available load was 3 3/4 DE, 1 1/4 oz--1330 fps. Recoil energy: 33 ft/lbs. Heaviest lead 12ga 2 3/4" load available today: 1 5/8 oz turkey load (don't have a DE for it)--1250 fps. That load's recoil energy, same 8# gun: 47.4 ft/lbs.
So . . . even going from the hottest short 12 to the hottest 2 3/4" 12 then available, you would have increased recoil by 50%. Go to the heaviest one available now, you more than double it! Which tells me . . . if recoil is the evil genius in this whole business, then why aren't older guns so mistreated--as well as new guns--shooting loose at an accelerated rate? That's a far greater increase in recoil than in service pressure, under SAAMI max standards.
And unless the Winchester geniuses were wrong, even well-made, well-fitted guns WILL shoot loose. Otherwise, why did they bother designing hinge pins of increasingly large size to replace the original, in the event of looseness? And note: That's on one of the more modern and stronger (as we know from the Winchester proof tests, in which all the other guns failed--the Ithaca and Fox under 100 rounds, while the 21 absorbed 2,000) of our classic doubles.
As for the example of the .22 insert . . . well, you now have a .22 barrel inside a shotgun barrel. What's the result? Heavier gun, heavier barrel. That's precisely what you do with a gun that's going to be exposed to higher pressures. Note the thickness of chamber walls on a .410, for that skinny little shell--which produces very little recoil. (The standard lead 3" .410 load, 11/16 oz at 1135 fps, produces a whopping 8.8 ft/lbs of recoil in an 8# gun. 410 barrels need to be that robust to absorb all that nasty recoil? But a .410, as we know, does produce increased pressure in comparison with the bigger bores.
In summary, whether you think pressure or recoil is the bogeyman, it seems to me extremely unwise to subject your gun to the forces of either, if they're in excess of those for which the gun was built. You may well get lucky and nothing will happen. Or you might get unlucky, end up with a cracked frame, gun off face, etc. And if you have never seen an off face American classic double--I don't care of what brand--I'd suggest you've lived a very sheltered life. The modern competition guns are a different story, because they're built for the shells being used in them. You would not expect them to shoot loose, or at least not until after many thousands of rounds.
Last edited by L. Brown; 08/07/09 07:01 PM.
