doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com OT 6.5x53R????

I just purchased an old english sporter in 6.5x53R. Does anyone have any experience loading for this round.

Thanks.

Daniel

Here you go:

Load data - almost
http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=1078

Loaded ammo
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,5669.html

Cases
http://www.grafs.com/product/183584

Pete

I'll see if I can find my data at home....reloader 15, I'll see how many grains. Bullets 160 gr Hornady round nose, velocity is 2350. A great round......what kind of sporter? No pics?
Steve

Daniel-

I also have an english sporter chambered in this round.
It's a great cartridge, and has quite a place in the 'good old days' of the Africa Ivory trade.
WDM Bell used it successfully on elephant for quite some time before he switched to the 7mm.
Google WDM Bell and 6.5mm and see what you come up with!
You'll find some very interesting stories, and likely some leads on load data.

Like the others here on the thread I'll have to dig for my load data.
I have yet to finish my load development for my particular rifle.

I form brass from WW 303Brit brass
Your rifle was likely set up to run the 160gr bullet, I use the Hornady 160gr round nose which is very similar to the sporting bullet design from the period.

Will you please tell us more about your rifle?
Who made it, is it a Jeffery?
Can you post photos?


--Tinker

Thanks for the responses. I will try to get some pictures posted.

The rifle was built upon an Steyr action. It has a 24 inch barrel with two leaf sights. The stock is nicely checkered and is straight gripped. The gun utilized the old eye type sling swivels. The barrel is marked Gray & Co. 14 Union Street Inverness. The ring of the action is marked 1892, and the side of the action is marked 1893.

Thanks,

Daniel

I have a carbine sporter built on a Romanian M93 (Steyr) in it's original 6.5x53R caliber. Original barrel used w/ 1/4 rib added, 2 leaf sight, DST, full length stock & and some engraving that's hard to see in my pics. Nice light weight carbine. Just started case forming and loading. Using 303 British (Greek Military HXP 'cause I have a bunch of it) and 6.5x54 M/S dies. A bit of work but I finally worked out a few bugs and got it to shoot. I've only fired it with my starting load of 30gr of IMR 4350, CCI primer, 160gr Hornady SP bullets. 3 shots touching but 4" high at 25yrds (my only range available on Sunday AM as skeet shooting interfere with the 50 & 100 yrd ranges (lead rain). Some rear sight filing looks to be in order at some point. The load comes from an article by Ken Waters in Handloader Magazine "256 Mannlicher-Pet Loads". His load was 37gr, I backed off to 30gr to start and haven't bothered to play around with anything else yet. Haven't had time. A couple of pics of the carbine and the loading table.
>
I've read others state that loading data for the 6.5 Italian Carcano is a good starting point for this caliber due to the similarities of the cases and that the Italian round being a bit smaller in length (51mm) gives a margin of safety. Sounds reasonable. I haven't dug up any data on the Carcano round to compare with the above to see if they do in fact have any relationship. I suspect they do but I try to avoid 'wildcatting' especially when sitting behind a 100 year old rifle with custom formed cases. I also had in storage from years ago a large (2000+) supply of pulled military 6.5cal FMJ 160gr bullets. I bought them for something like $1 per box of 200pcs. Squirreled away waiting for the day I knew would come when I could freely load them and shoot something I would own for nearly nothing. Unfortunately, they are pulled Carcano bullets of .268" diameter and they stick in the seater die of my Redding die set. They would have to make them so precise. The groove dia. of the carbine above is actually .268" as are alot of the Euro military 6.5 rifles of that period, but I'll have to size them down .004" to use them I guess. With the price of bullets, It'll be worth it. Good stuff for my 1903 M/S too.

My rifle's barrel slugged out at .268. Let me know if you want to get rid of some of your .268 bullets.

Thanks,

Daniel

Daniel-

Almost all of these old brit mannlicher sporting rifles have oversized bores -- and shoot best with the .264 Hornady 6.5mm 160grSNRN

It might take a little adjustment for you to feel comfortable doing it, but load some of these up and shoot the rifle.
You'll likely be very surprised with how well they shoot.

Hornady also makes a .268 6.5 that they market for the carcano.
I'm pretty disappointed with this bullet, especially in the 6.5/53r and the 6.5/54mannlicher.
The bullet is almost completely cylindrical, not tapered like the .264 is and like the proper period round nose bullets were, which featured a long 'bore-riding' section in front of the cannelure, and a cylindrical .264 section behind the cannelure.
The .268 just didn't perform well at all in my Jeffery sporter. The rounds weren't accurate, the pressures were a pain to track, and didn't seem intuitive when compared to the chrono readings.
I've abandoned them in my load development.
I know quite a few guys who have gone down the same road.
I actually called the guys at Hornady one day last year, noting this unfortunate design problem, comparing it to it's 264 brother. The guy I was talking to didn't even know of this issue, so I asked him to set the phone reciever down for a minute, get a box of them and a micrometer, and get back on the phone with me. He was surprised that Hornady had done this with the carcano bullet. I don't expect them to revise the bullet forming dies any time soon, but I might call them again on this later in the year to see if they've done anything about it.

If your bore is *very nice* you might want to look at casting hard cast bullets for it. There are some very nice moulds available, and you can get a range of lubrisizer dies to experiment with while working up the perfect load for your rifle.
The bore of my rifle is a bit rough, so it's jacketed bullets for me. Tried the .268 and haven't looked back since.

Don't let that bore measurement be a dealbreaker for you.
Get some components and get it running.

And post some images of it for us to see!

Here's an image of my WJ Jeffery

A closeup of the banded bank of rear sights



--Tinker

Thanks for the information! Your Jeffery is very nice. Is that a peep sight on the end of the bolt?

Daniel

I'll second Tinker's findings with the .268 dia Carcano bullets in a 6.5 Mannlicher. Not worth the time. As I said, my carbine and most every other 6.5 European Military barrel I've ever checked was .268 or close to it, but the ammo was .264,,except the Carcano of course. Aside from them getting stuck in (my) seater die, they could, depending on your case neck dia., expand the neck dia. a bit too large for the chamber and cause problems. These Military Carcano bullets are .268 all the way down, unlike the commercial bullets Tinker had which had a .264 dia seating dia. section. You may need a slightly larger expander button for your die with these to better allow seating of the .268 bullet. Neck turning/reaming are options,, use of Carcano dies for neck sizing only...Lots of little things for usually no gain in accuracy, and perhaps a loss. The .264's shoot so well in my 1903 M/S (with it's .267" groove dia) and so far the early reports are that they will shoot well in the Steyr carbine as well, I have no intention to even try my hoard of .268's as is. I'll make up a simple push thru sizer to squeeze them down to .264 and spend a mind numbing couple of hours making them usable.
That is a great looking sporter Tinker. I have a Dutch 95 action that I'd like to barrel to either 6.5 or 303 and make up a sporter like that. More perfect lines I can't think of..Thanks for posting the pics..

Daniel-

Thanks for the comment on the Jeffery.
What you see on the bolt is most of a Jeffery patent peep sight, which I'm in the works of replacing a few missing parts.

Here's the patent application drawings of the sight.


As you can see in the drawing it's regulated for 100-500 yards. The reguation cam disc can be replaced too, which is a neat feature.
The replacement parts I'm making are true to the Jeffery design.
From what I've seen, it's a pretty rare feature.
I have a copy of the Jeffery factory ledger page confirming that this rifle was ordered and shipped with the patent sight, the banded 5-blade rear sight, and the proprietary Jeffery ivory-tipped and hooded front sight.

Here's the sight as advertised in a WJ Jeffery catalog from the period.



It's a cool rifle indeed.

On the topic of the carcano bullets I was using, they did not have a smaller seating diameter. They were .268 all the way from the base to the ogive, although I did turn the necks of the cases that I loaded with them to allow for clearance in the chamber throat.


So Daniel, let's see some photos of your rifle!



--Tinker

I am having issues posting the pictures. I have them saved as JPG files. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Daniel

Daniel-

You need to put those photos up on a photo hosting site like Flickr.com or Hunt101.com
From there, you then need to link them to your forum posts.
This takes the burden of file storage off of this site's owner, and to out to the servers of photo hosting sites.

Both Flickr.com and Hunt101.com are free.

When making a reply to a post, instead of using the quick reply box at the bottom of the screen, click the little 'reply' button on the bottom post (or any post for that matter) in the thread you want to reply to.

From there you'll be taken to a reply message screen.
There are buttons in that screen which will allow you to do stuff.
One of them is for posting photos.
Clicking the 'post a photo' button will cause a small box to emerge on your screen, where you will be able to paste the URL of your hosted photos that you've uploaded to your photo hosting site.

There will be directions on your photo hosting site that will direct you to the right URL to copy, then paste here in your post reply page.

Following me so far?

Go start a free photo hosting account at Flickr.com or Hunt101.com
Upload your photos there, and see if you can make it through the other steps.
If that doesn't work out, we'll try to steer you in the right direction when the time comes.

Off you go now... Start your new photo hosting account!


--Tinker

Here are some pics of my rifle. Had issues with the flash.......

[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/kriskuehl/2615468579[/img]

[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/kriskuehl/2615468589[/img]

[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/kriskuehl/2615468593[/img]

The rifle actually has a nice looking oil finish, the flash makes it look like glass.

Daniel

Daniel-

Great looking rifle!
What a classic little sporter, I'm sure it could tell some stories...
Once you get it running, I'm sure it'll quickly become one of your favorites.
Work with a chronograph in your load development.
What you want is a load that shoots to the sights. I've seen some lofty handload velocity claims for the 256 mannlicher. You don't need sizzling speed with that 160gr bullet, it's a penetrating machine - very heavy for caliber, very high sectional density.

Let us know how it goes.




--Tinker

Tinker,

Thank you for your kind comments on my rifle. I am excited about getting it shooting.

Daniel

three or so years ago.

It was 'stocked and sighted' by an English 'name'.....on a Steyr action. Some loads were mentioned by R.S., as well as the usual history and hunting experience -- Rocky Mountain elk, of course. ;~`).

Thanks to all, for the very nice info and photos posted here, of one of the unsung and unheralded staple calibers of the Late Colonial Umpiahs. That 160gr is a flying drill bit for sectional density.

The bore vs bullet size is new to me, and I'll be posting this URL off to a few other 6.5x53R Dutch Romanian admirers, who may have something to add from their own experiences. One of my six-gunning friends has a simple sporto'd Dutchie Mannlicher in this caliber. It's a hoot to shoot, with very pleasant manners. Reminds me of touching off an over-sized spring air gun, in it's recoil characteristics.

I have read, once, that there is some speculation that WDM Bell's beloved and ultra-light special-order "mannlicher" was not the rotary magazine, classic full stock carbine, but a 6.5X53R Steyr similar to the one's posted here. And, no, I haven't been able to remember that citation, but I couldn't have been the only one to have read it. Hope someday, I'll be re-enlightened by someone with a better mental card file than mine.

The very few assorted 'sighted and stocked' 6.5X53R sporting Lee-Enfields, Lee-Speeds, as well as the more spartan Army-Navy Store issue, that I have examined are out of the same style stables as their Steyr brethern, tho I have never seen DST's on an Enfield!! ;~`)

Lastly, a poster on the SSM BBS who had done commercial game shooting in Australia, owned a custom 6.5-by built on a No. 1 action, here in the states. He was impressed by the ruggedness of the Enfield he used for meat hunting, and had shot the caliber. He thot very highly of the combo as a practical game rifle.

In one of my old hunting books, a Canadian trapper is pictured with his faithful sporting Styer, a .30 Luger in a full military holster, a Hudson's Bay Axe thrust thru the pistol belt, and a very light pack -- in midwinter. He had been the outdoor mentor of the writer, and was the epitome of living lightly on the land.

Next time you spot a 'bubba'd' milsurp No. 1, whilst strolling a gunshow, think of owning y'r own new African magazine rifle. It could start a whole new relatively inexpensive trend, once someone is set up with reamers and good bbls. A classic Brit stock design, some decent sights, and there'll be a WDM Bell 6.5 match at the Vintagers.

Look forward to further info from the users of these interesting guns.

ADDENDUM: from the Enfield collector's board --a gunsmith who does re barreling on Enfield's. Not all 'smith's want to bother with them, for a variety of reasons, including prejudicial ignorance. D & D Gunsmiths of Troy, Michigan. Will be checking them out.

John-

I too have heard that Bell owned and had used and early .256 'Dutch' mannlicher like the one my Jeffery (pictured above in the thread) is based on. Also I have heard that he also later had obtained a rotary styer-mannlicher rifle which remained in his collection for quite some time after he 'made the switch' to the .275 Rigby

I've been in the know on a recent effort to develop 'replicas' of these nice old rifles. As it goes, it seems there is a lack of enough 'real money' interest in funding such projects on a production level.

True vintage examples of safari-grade 256 mannlicher carbines and rifles tend to get snatched up quickly.
I don't know of one that's sat on the market for long which was priced realistically.

And it's true, they're an absolute hoot to shoot.


--Tinker

Around here the simple, sporto'd Dutchies occasionally are found, lost and bereft at gunshows.

I recently got a few basic quotes, to assay a one off project similar to small commercial idea you post.

First: find the best specs for a properly dimension chamber,to milled into a good bbl with the modern .256-260-264 dimension. Dave Manson makes premium reamers and that's who my gunsmith wants me to buy from. Also, he would only use a Shilen or comparable first quality bbl. I empathize with him, as I find lesser quality antiques to take just as much time as an untouched , signed Stickley desk upon which somebody once mounted a can-opener.

D&D Gunshop, up the road in Mich also will do this work. they grind their own reamers to y'r specs-- $140.00 Tobbl up with a Douglas bbl is 460$, including the bbl. Installation of NEGC express sights, and other goodies will be 'per item' wished. They do a fine. sharp bead blast with a double hot-dip. Looks a lot like a rust blue, but is very durable.

As to stocks, there are some good dupe'rs, even in my neck'o the woods. I'd guess a thou would fetch one in,depending on what the purchaser is willing to accomplish -- action polishing, wood finishing, furnishing parts..

An economy of scale could be realized by subscription,but I won't hold my breath. The first realistic mfg step is to get the reamer made, and that is the one I'm, oddly enough, doing first. Prolly, the Manson, tho certainly benchrest quality isn't necessarily needed. Then the reamer is available for rent, to those so minded. Ordinarily, I would just loan for free, but given that Iwould have no control over where or how it used, it seems prudent to spread out the cost, JIC there is an upp-effin incident.

A couple of thoughts, and some heresy. I have owned a No4 Golden States Arms sporter which had been re machined into a ver' nifty and teaditional shape, sans loading and ears, and rear sight stuff. I like No4's 'cause they a half century newer than anything of quality, but Aussie No1's. Something to think about as anyone witha solid vice and metal working hand tools can replicate that look on some poor old Gomer'd action. Also, a good tight No. 4 can push 48,000 CUP -- a discussion for another time.

However, Lithgow No 1's which have been thru the gentle hands of Bubba are out there and relatively inexpensive. Mo' classic lookin's, if ya will. Prolly easier to get a sorta Lee-speed look, too. I gotta run back to the money makin',but willbe happy to discuss this at length with interst'd parties. Exchange of E-addys and we can do that by phone?

A friend has a rifle similar to mine, but it is chambered in 303 magnum. The rifle was put together by BSA. I have include some links to pics of it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kriskuehl/2652135561/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kriskuehl/2652135553/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kriskuehl/2652135509/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kriskuehl/2652135501/

Regards,
Daniel

Daniel-

That's a great looking BSA.
Thanks for sharing it.

Go out there and get your 6.5 running.
I can't wait to hear about your experience in working up a load for it.


--Tinker

I just talked to the man who previously owned my rifle. He was using .266 bullets. He stated that the .264 performed poorly, and the .266 bullets gave very good results in this rifle. Unfortunately, he did not remember where he got them. Does anyone have any ideas on where I can purchase .266 bullets?

Thanks,
Daniel

Daniel-

Without knowing what type of bullet he was running it's tough to evaluate his comments.
My guess is that he was running gas check cast bullets, sizing them in a lubrisizer die.

What bullet shape, velocity, load, brass etc was this guy running?
Was he trying to get a light bullet to run at high velocity?
Was he trying to get spitzers to cloverleaf at 300 yards?
What else do you know about his load development process that led to the .266?

Folks get all sorts of ideas of how to run a rifle, what the 'perfect load' could be per caliber...
What you've shown us is a cool old classic rifle in relatively original condition. It was built to go out and explore the world and perform consistently everywhere it went, with a specific piece of ammunition -- which was to be available all around the 'British Empire' where it likely enjoyed the bulk of it's glorious chases.

I maintain that you should try what the rifle was built for, the 160gr .264 diameter SNRN jacketed bullet, running your load development over a chronograph, looking for your best velocity at somewhere in the '100 or so FPS slower than period suggested velocity' in your rifle, while paying careful attention to pressure signs along the way.

I'm guessing your rifle will do it's best, and shoot to the sights with the .264" 160gr SNRN Hornady bullet in the ~2200++FPS range. You might even see 'factory spec' velocity out of it, but I wouldn't count on the 'best' load being the hottest, or necessarily the one that gets you the old stated performance.
Those old little 6.5mm rifles earned the reputation of being handy and light, great little game killing machines. The bullet had a lot to do with it.

The 'Factory Ammunition Velocity' claims of the old cartridges was rarely seen when shot through real rifles over real chronographs.
Your rifle was built, shot and sighted, and delivered to run Vintage Period Factory Ammunition - likely Kynoch soft points of similar weight and design to the Hornady.
In conversations with numerous owners of old rifles just like these shown here in the thread, I've heard time and time again that they can be sensitive to powder choice. We don't have the old cordite anymore, but guys the world over keep finding good loads for the 6.5x53r and 6.5x54MS running the 160gr bullet that they were built for.

Give it a try.

Or, give that guy another call and ask him for his load recipe, his bullet mould, lubrisizer, and his sizing die.
That could be the quickest road to success after all...
Still, I'd genuinely like to hear what the bullet design was, and if it was a cast bullet, what alloy he was using and what bullet lube he was running in the lubrisizer.
That 'best bullet for the rifle' in his world might not be the 'best hunting bullet' for that rifle for your world.


--Tinker