doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Early days of England's best gunmakers

I think that perhaps a fairer answer to the questions of who made what parts of the guns sold under there name is no one knows exactly for sure. If some one could produce a given makers transaction records with other firms it would IMO be possible to approximate what that specific maker actually built and what he outsourced.
Jim

It is highly likely that only three gunmakers in London built guns entirely in house and probably four in Birmingham.
But this really is, I believe a futile thread, because all makers to my knowledge when busy or not having a particular skill outsourced.If we are talking quality issues here let us address the guns supplied by 'Best' makers.Were the guns supplied to the Colonies in exchange for Cotton, Tea, Cocoa etc., by the 'Best' of the highest quality? Of course they were not, which is precisely why my 'Best'gun will be of superior or inferior finish and quality than some other owner of the same 'Best' and indeed, were they even made by the name on the rib? Of cause not.I would guess 90% of guns are/were not entirely in house, 40% probably never went near the Makers workshop and probably 20% of the gunmakers spoke Walloon or Belgique rather than Cockney.London Proof has no International barriers.

Thanks Salopian,

This helps now put it into some better perspective for me.

You stated: "which is precisely why my 'Best'gun will be of superior or inferior finish and quality than some other owner of the same 'Best'".

Are you saying that some of the better known names used several different enough suppliers for their best grade guns that one can sometimes see signifant differences between essentially the firm's same best model? Excluding the engraving of course.

cc/dt is digging deep beneath the bench for his Reilly stash, so I went ahead and made a PictureTrail album
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=19914837

Here's the Pouiatowski Monogram

Salopian-

Come on - entirely inhouse is not the same as having guns made in Birmingham and then engraving your name on them in London.

And you're pulling those numbers out of the air. You might as well say 75%, 20% and 5%, or mix it up another way. None of us have any way to know what those numbers really are.

Yeah - the London guys outsourced. If you had a small shop, you probably didn't have an engraver on your staff, or maybe you had a special job that required exceptional skills, so you went to the best finisher in London.

But so what? For the most part, the guns were still being made in London by the gun makers who sold.

And a lot of times the guys they outsourced to were in London - not Birmingham. Why? Because the best craftsmen were in London. Why again? Because that's where their skills commanded the highest rates.

In his book London Gunmakers, Nigel Brown lists 48 records the "Individual histories of 48 London gunmakers and related businesses."

Did some of the gunmakers bring stuff in from Birmingham and then finish it off inhouse. Sure. But I think most of them were making a lot of their guns in London at their shops or factories.

OWD

Salopian,s assessment ot the gun trades out-sourcing practice is excellent. Even the great Joe Manton out-sourced the Forging of breech blocks for his stanchion guns to Fuller. All of which and much more on the trade between Birmingham & London is detailed in the Diaries of Colonel Peter Hawker.
Other factors that forced increased out-sourcing on many makers were;
1/The introduction of;steel to replace damascus as a barrel material.
2/The success of various patent actions.
It is obvious that production of steel barrel blanks was out of the question for individual gun makers. At the same time if a customer demanded a specific action for a new gun[ie; Anson and Deeley] many gun makers would purchase actions, "In the white", for finishing in their own works or alternatively a complete gun bearing their name; rather than risk loss of business.

Just found a Reilly with the rib marked "Barrels by Darlow's, Norwich"

OWD - I don't think you will ever see a more accurate estimate than that given by Salopian.

The take-away from this thread should be that it matters much more what level of workmanship was ordered, paid for, and enforced (QC) than who did it where.

London may have paid better wages, but it had a higher cost of living. If not, all craftsmen would have gone to London --- and they didn't. Then, as today, people have a wide range of reasons for living in any given location.

This is the most difficult point for me. I believe that few craftsmen had the kind of passion for gunmaking that we love to imagine. Then, as today, most found themselves stuck in a job and not at all sure how they got there. Gunmaking paid decent wages for the time and place, not more. Very few got rich in the gun trade.

Best guns came about only by rigirous enforcement of QC standards from a master/owner with his reputation on the line. It came not from the fortuitious assemblage of blessed parts made in a given location or factory. I did come from the demanding supervision of all aspects of his guns by a man who counted his money to the penny.

Exactly..no one knows or will ever know..the numbers he posted are just a wild guess at best.

Note to Squire Glenthorn, I have on my Bench a Westley Richards , Sold by Abercrombie & Fitch NY.Sr No 187** built 1950, Sold 1969.Its built on a H&H pat.action Standard Opener, Hidden 3rd Bolt,Hand Detachable Locks with a H&H pat, Lock Screw.Its a 12b.2.3/4"chambers,28" Tubes,(Whoops Or Bullups')Barrels,Built by the Dovetail Method,They "Ring" like Old Maisie's ankle bells when she was running down the alley behind Purdeys with the 'Law"on her tail....The Locks, by the way , were made by Joseph Brazier, Ashes."How more better could you want?Barrels Bored at .729"and measure out at .729".Only Stampings on tubes is a PG.(Plus the Birmingham Proof Stamps)Which is K-1-B in the circle.Blacking is typical Brum. (As opposed to the London Deep Black,Johnsons of Kilburn Lane was the "Man")Gun Weighs 6.10lbs.Has Auto Safety, Double Triggers.Forend has a Anson Latch, with a Diamond Inlay in the center of the wood.Top Rib is Engraved, Westley Richards, LONDON. The Small Scroll Engraving with Bunches of roses,(Very ah la London) is of the highest Quality. I see no indication on any part that it was built by anyone outside of the Bournbrook,sp? Factory other than the Brazier Locks. I have Restocked a 1930s 20b Side Lock Westley,built for a Scottish Titled Lady. back in my Chicago Days....Whats the saying......Brum Guns are the Workhorses, London guns are the Thoroughbreds........cc/dt