doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com 1882 Holland & Holland sxs 500 BPE

I have an 1882 H&H 500 BPE rifle that has this charge inscribed on the side of the action:

"charge 5 drams NA, case 3 inches"

I have searhed high and low, and have asked a number of knowledgeable individuals, "what does the NA stand for, exactly" ?
All comments and suggestions are welcomed. Thank you, Herb

Just a guess Herb but I'd say a certain brand of powder. I've got bids in on two 500's right now myself.

Mike, yes it is some brand of powder I believe, but the abbreviations I have seen so far don't fit. Some of the people I have talked with have seen the NA on double rifles before, but as to what it is an abbreviation for , no luck. Thanks for the input! :)Herb

Mine is just a guess also, but during the 1870s everyone was getting on the high explosives bandwagon and Alfred Nobel(Swedish) inventor of dynamite, was busy. He began in the mid 1860s w/ Alfred Nobel & Company and Dynamit Nobel was formed in the late 1870s and was somehow associated w/ the British Dynamite Company. He coined the phrase “Progressive” when combined w/ powder in an 1869 patent. And around 1875 Nobel painted a scratch on his hand to prevent infection and later on that day when the paint was exposed to nitro-glycerine he noticed it formed a gel. But he really didn’t get control of it until 1887. Schulzte introduced a smokeless version in 1865 and Volkmann made a discovery dealing w/ nitrocellulose around 1870. And by 1879 the Brits were working pretty hard on the Zulu’s w/ the Gatling guns and I don’t know if they were using Triple Strength(T.S.) or what, but I'll look. Also, local African powders were very poor. So with all that typed, I would guess the “NA” to be something of Nobel's, an English Powder exported to Africa or a combo of both for now. But there was Alliance.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Charge is way too large for it to be smokeless. Standard .500 3" BPE load was 136 grains black under a 340 or 440 grain bullet. "Charge 5 drams" equals 136 grains, so the reference is to black in a standard load.

I agree that "NA" has to be a reference to a brand of black, and likely a British one. I suppose "N" could suggest Nobel's, but I wasn't aware that Nobel's ever made black at Ardeer? IIRC, National Arms and Ammunition was in trouble by then, so it probably isn't them.

I'll agree that the charge is way too big for semi-smokeless, gun cotton or the like. But the noted charge is during the transitional period and I would assume that H&H used it as a marketing tool, whether it was for a specific area or market. By the mid 1860s, saltpeter supplies were low which drove the Indian version very high so a conversion process was developed to process Chilean saltpeter. Mining was looking for a cheaper supply as well as more bang for their sawbuck. In hind sight, surely there was a black powder with his name attached seeing that he does have "Peace Prize" attached which is forevermore bound.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

First of all, thanks for all the input! I bought the gun some 6 years ago from an individual who was a naturalized citizen from South Africa, who told me that, that was where he had picked the gun up. So that has a little reference to some of the information put forth.

And to add a little more mystery, I had a good look at a copy of the original H&H order sheet for the gun again this afternoon, which is in Victorian script.

Among other details on the gun it states "Shot with 5 Drams long R. bullet paper's, 4 1/4 Drams Eley bullet ?fafeit?" (this last word is difficult to understand i.e. Victorian handwritten script). A little more information to chew on! What do you think? Herb

H.W. Hyatt:

Any possiblity of posting a pic of the order sheet? I have some experience in reading similar type calligraphy in reading countless U.S. land patent entries for that period. If you are somewhat of a traditionalist and intend on using paper with you bullet, in addition to paper supplied by the gunmaker, you are going to need a camel-hair pencil and some Russian tallow or may Sperm oil will suffice for the "half inch", "36 bore", "38 bore" or 0.500. Were any of the above included in the case? Around the 1870s, the 500 was considered "a formidable weapon for tigers and bears."

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Could that be Eley's Fraser's Ratchet Bullet?

Take a look here:
http://cartridgecollectors.org/forum/vie...c61653bf2#11025

It would help to know the date on the order sheet.

Pete

PeteM:

That would have been one of my 2 first guesses: Fraser of Daniel Mackintosh Fraser or Lieut. Forsyth author of "The Sporting Rifle and Its Projectile".

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse