doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Off Topic question on double rifle..........

True, some 'Express' cartridges are very suitable for NA game when one applies strict definition of this term coined by Purdey in mid 1850s. It's just that .450/400NE 3&1/4" isn't one of them.

I am more than a little confused here. He said .450 x 3 1/4". If you look at Lewis Drake's ammo selection and at others available on the internet the .450 x 3 1/4 usually has B.P.E. in it's name. There is little doubt that cartridge was later used as basis for the .450 cordite loading and the .450 Nitro Express, but I wasn't aware those loads were named as .450 x 3 1/4. So what should the proof markings be on the gun for the respective Black powder express; or Cordite/Nitro loadings.

J.B.

Let me give you a quick and very simplified summary of proofs.

If the rifle is the .450 3 1/4" BPE (black powder) the proofs will most likely be ".450 EX." and if London proof it will have the "Crown over V" mark.

Here is a photo of the barrel flats of my .500 BPE, a Purdey with London black powder proofs, made in 1894, the only difference being caliber (.500 EX):



For a .450 3 1/4" Nitro Express you will see nitro proofing, which is quite different.

Here is a photo of the barrel flats of my George Gibbs .450 3 1/4" Nitro Express, made in 1906:



Note that on the nitro gun you see "Cordite 70 - 480 MAX" which is the designation of the cordite load (70 grains cordite, 480 grain bullet).

You also see the nitro proof stamp (the flexed arm holding a schimitar over the letters "NP"). This mark came into use in 1903 and will not be present on an earlier gun.

These proof marks are in addition to the black powder proof marks already discussed, which you see also present.

I am no great expert on proof marks, and this is at most a very incomplete summary. Reference works such as Nigel Brown give extensive details, and even then you will encounter deviations or variations not documented. However, this should be somewhat useful when you look at the rifle today.

The .450 BPE and the .450 3 1/4" NE use the same brass. You can chamber the nitro round in the black powder gun. Don't try anything adventuresome until you have the advice of an expert.

The black powder gun should be lighter than a nitro. It will range between 8 1/2 and 10 pounds. The nitro gun will be 10 pounds or over, even up to 12 pounds for a very heavy one.

You will encounter hammer guns in nitro proof. Some were originally made for nitro, some were re-proofed from black.

Likewise, you will encounter hammerless guns in only black powder proof.

It's important to know the difference.

Value depends on many factors and cannot be estimated from what little information you have at this point.

Feel free to contact me if you want to discuss this further. I might even be interested in the rifle.

Good luck,
Curl

P.S.

Birmingham proof marks are somewhat different, but follow similar patterns.

Of course it is. Why are you being foolish?

A Savage 99 lever the finest rifle??? I don't know about that either. Two owners of 99's I know were disgusted and traded them in for Remington bolt actions.
All the best

Ouch - that hurts!

Ah, the voice of no experience.

J. B.:

The description is too general to provide much specific help.

A .450 3 1/4" could be either a Black Powder Express or a Nitro Express. Both were, and are, referred to as such. The .450 3 1/4" BPE was the .30/06 of it's day in Britain and Europe, and was very common there. Nice examples were easy to find and reasonably priced not long ago, but not any more. The good ones are difficult to find now, and prices are up substantially. The .450 NE is a fine dangerous game round, and double rifles chambered for it and in good condition are very valuable. Generally, the Nitros are substantially more valuable than the BPEs. Hammer vs Hammerless doesn't effect value all that much with BPEs, but does with Nitros.

Let's assume the rifle is British (chances are, but of course it could also be from the continent). Look at the flats. A full Nitro Express built before 1904 will be marked: "Cordite 70 grs. - 480 grs. Bullet Max'm". There will be no Nitro Proof mark. A full Nitro built after 1904 will be marked: "Cordite 70 - 480 MAX" and will bear a Nitro Proof mark (crown over NP for Birmingham; upraised arm in armour embowed holding a scimitar over NP for London). If these marks are absent, it's a BPE. If the rifle isn't British, photograph the flats and water table and post them here.

Evaluating a fine double rifle is more complicated than doing so for a double shotgun, but you should be able to get a general idea on your own. However, if it looks good, unless the price makes it a blind man deal, get it to a pro for evaluation before you bite.

There's good news for the .450 3 1/4" from Hornady. They will be offering .450 Nitro Express factory ammunition soon, as well as components. They're made brass and bullets (I had inert sample cartridges at SCI) and are now working up their load. The brass will be correct for handloading the .450 BPE as well, and cast bullets appropriate for the BPE are readily available from a number of sources.

Brent,
Why does that hurt????
Do you happen to be a Savage 99 collector???
All the best

No, I actually sorta like'em, but they are too modern for me. Nearly bought one once but took a Belgian BLR instead. Big mistake that was.

I just think of "upgrading to a Remington bolt rifle" to be more or less like commenting to someone that he ought to "upgrade to a Remington 870".



Brent

Brent
Good point, Savages are a nice looking firearm I'll have to admit and the term "upgrade to a Remington", other than their SxS's, of course, does hurt.
All the best