doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Off Topic question on double rifle..........

I'm going to be looking at a double rifle tomorrow- 450 3 1/4 "
I know nothing about them and am looking for advice on gauging pros and cons of the gun. Is there a difference between the ordinary caliber designation or were they all Nitro Express?
What should I look for in evaluating the gun? I am fairly proficient in sizing up shotguns but have no experience with double rifles.... What could I use this gun on as far as North American game? If this gun is in good condition and from a reputable maker (english/european)what would be a fair value?
Any value difference on hammer vs hammerless? The gentleman is selling on behalf of a widow and has no information except " you can come over to see it if you want"......I would not normally be interested , but I know the deceased was fairly well heeled and was known to own some rather nice old guns..
thanks and best regards,
JBP

J.B. a .450x3 1/4" is usually a black powder cartridge, earlier than the Nitro Express rifles. As far as what you could use it on, it is adequate for all the bigger animals like elk and moose, and for bears too. You could load it with black powder or with nitro for black loads (ala Sherman Bell) if you feel adventurous. It is very much like the Quigley down under cartridge which was .450x 2 7/8" which holds a little less powder. Use big bullets (like 535 grain ones) probably, but you need twist rate to be sure.

J.B.,

You want to go look at that double rifle. Jerry has noted that the caliber was originally black powder and plenty of doubles were made in .450 express, but .450 3-1/4" was the original cordite nitroexpress big bore and holds its place in dangerous game hunting to this day. Take a look at the proof marks and post them here if you don't have one of the proof house booklets. They will tell you roughly when it was proofed and so, likely close to when it was made. Plenty of references exist to track serial numbers down to year of build so post that, too.

Key is the condition of the gun and, other than the usual checks you would do for a double shotgun: on the face; wood to metal; dings, the bore is more complicated. The old cordite rifles tend to show some erosion in the rifling at the throat where hot-burning cordite touched first. That lowers value depending.

Is the rifle a hammerless sidelock or boxlock? If it's a hammer gun instead, does it have a safety (rare but, as with shotguns, not unheard of)? Is it a top lever or a Jones underlever or a snap action or what?

Is it a Rigby? They made the original .450 3-1/4" It's not likely to be an H&H; they made their proprietary .500/.450. Is it cased and if so, what tools are in the case beyond snap caps? What does it weigh? The older guns of .450+ are generally at 11 lbs. Nicer to have one just over 10 or 10-1/2 to carry all day. Length of barrels? The big doubles were at 24" generally by about 1905 or so, although a client could order the older 26" barrels.

What's it worth? Get some idea from gunsamerica.com and from the H&H website and from Lewis Drake website (latter two will give you the very highest end). You could easily be in the midteens or a good bbit more, although the .450 nitro is less desirable than the .470 that has readily available if very dear commercial ammo in (some) gun stores.

Expect the more knowledgeable will chime in.

Regards, Tim

I would take a good cleaning rod and some patches. You want to see how well the bores will clean up if they are dusty.

Just as important, you want to use the cleaning rod (with a rotating handle) to measure the twist. These rifles shot light bullets in slow twist barrels. Depending on what you want to do, and what you are willing to do, you may decide that the twist is not what you want or need.

Brent

and another thing. you want to see if their ia any info on the gun or from the widow with regards to a regulating load.

Brent

Did some one say Cordite?





Pete

That is cordite? I would never have guessed. Cool photos,
thanks,
Brent

If you get John Taylor's cartridge book it shows all the big game loads as well as some neat Cordite cutaways.

You come to realize as you read his book he generally judges cartridges in two categories - the big ones are good, the small ones not so good. Moreover, much of his opinion seems more centered around bullet design than the rest of the cartridge.

Disadvantages: ole' elephant cartridges are expensive to shoot, hard to regulate with modern components, and next to useless for game in North America.
The only advantage is you might find someone to buy it off you for more money assuming you don't pay for it too much in the first place. As Eightbore says the money on gun is made at time of purchase.... People buy these ole' doubles as room dressing and for investment purposes only.
Ask ole' Madam if she has graded Savage 99 in that collection. Ole' 99 in grade B or above, now there is the finest rifle ever made! My close second choice would be vintage Mannlicher Schoenauer in kal. 6.5x54mm.
PS. If you still want that two singles in one be sure to get a copy of Shooting the British Double Rifle by Wright and read it. You can skip the 'Paradox' section those things are next to useless.

Actually, I think the old Express cartridges are great for NA game. Their bullets are light and fast. But not too light for anything around this hemisphere.

Brent