doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 8 Gauge ?

What american makers built an 8 gauge double? I know that Parker, Baker, Smith and Lefever did. But did anyone else?

Davenport comes to mind. I know, I have one. Thanks, Frank

Bob, I've got an 8ga Sneider.
Granite

Kirkwood, Dane, Sherman, Boyd & Tyler, Mullin, Krider,Schaefer,
McComas-know of 8 Ga
Breechloaders by these Makers
M/L 8 probably made by most quality American makers of the time
Bill

Is it possible to hunt with 8ga in US today?

Geno, 8ga is banned only for waterfowl.

It varies from state to state as here in Alabama any scattergun larger than a 10 bore is not allowed for any game. I know Martin Sands uses a 8 bore but I can't remember the state, Wisconsin maybe?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It's pretty stupid, yea? Why I can't hunt with 1 or 2 ga gun?

The Davenport is a single, I think he's just asking about doubles. Another maker of singles was Shattuck by the way.

The ones Bill mentions are all "gun makers" not "gun companies".

I've hunted with 8 and 4 gauge guns over in the UK. It's an interesting experience, some of the best times I've had waterfowling. Killed a mallard drake at about 70 yards with a Holland & Holland double 4 bore, what a day.

Destry

What about Ithaca?

Who has a neat featherweight 8 Ga for upland birds?

Geno, it was banned when the punt guns were banned for commercial duck/goose hunting. I don't know the date but would expect the late teens or 1920's.

I have seen extremely heavy Ithicas which could be easily opened up for 8 Ga shells.

Pete, so long! Where are youve been?
Bag limit is enough to limit any BIG gauge advantages, thou I got a lot doupts about any

I've found that Chas Osborne from 12-13 Whittal Street, Birmingham had his name on the lockplate of a 2 bore pinfire punt gun made between 1855 & 1876. His gun was to be boat mounted and was directed(or "punted") toward the game. Charges for shot ranged from 6 oz to 1 1/2 pounds w/ a black powder charge of about the same bulk. Across the board, lengths ranged from 5 to 9 feet and had a weight between 50 to 250 lbs. Although I believe that many Americans preferred the trombone or A5.

I don't know if the Migratory Bird Treaty Act of 1918 limited bore size, but it did prohibit sale and import/export of wild game. And I have read some minutes from a conservation meeting either from the last 1920's or early 1930's including Mr. Buck in a book, which was not for sale, at John Allen's shop, Game Fair Limited, in Nashville.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I have a very old family 8x10 photo somewhere of a family member walking back to shore with a load of ducks on his back. There was something wrong about the photo. I finally realized what it was...the decoys were swimming along with the hunter. The decoys were live "Susies". Cool photo.

Geno, how is your duck call business coming along?

It is amazing what comsumable will become a collectable over time. Apparently as the market hunting days ended, the hoards of decoys were tossed aside and burned in the fireplaces for heat.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I postulate they could be very effective for ground swatting Blue quail for those so inclined.

Best,

Mike

Not to hyjack the thread, but here is a punt gun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7FeeamC4qk&feature=PlayList&p=EF5D3E19941D3DD7&index=12

I have to say I don't understand the collectability of decoys. Sure, they're old and some were handmade, so I'd pay a few bucks for one as a decoration. But no way would I pay more than $50 for any one of 'em.

There was a Merganser which sold for over $300,000.

....and a Crowell preening pintail for over a million.

To borrow a line from 'Trading Places', "In Houston Texas, they worth fifty bucks."

I hope the artists are dead. They don't deserve that much money.

Did Poultney & Trimble of Baltimore, Maryland, who manufactured Gilbert Smith breechloaders, make any 8 or 10 bore pinfire or centerfire shotguns?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Rumor has it that a "big shot" happens occasionally on the lower Eastern Shore of Maryland. I was offered a "big shot" a couple of years ago when a large group of RSA mallards relocated permanently to a nearby house pond. Unfortunately, I didn't have a punt gun so we fielded a group of shooters to "relocate" as many of the trespassers as possible in one afternoon shoot. I should have brought in a couple of eight bores for the job, but the invitation was on short notice and I didn't have time to go home, over a hundred miles, for the guns.

According to the gentleman that I bought the Tolley 8 bore from, he was still using it in the Chesapeke Bay area last fall. He had some 8 bore brass made up that had "10 ga XXX" stamped on the head.

Also not to steal the thread, here is a punt gun that Cabela's has, tried to get Destry to buy it.
I've seen the gun and it is nice, had to be refinished or never used.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11649

Two years ago while buying a Parker I was allowed to hold a 6ga SxS and a 4ga single barrel. Both were for shells but I didn't see any. Paul

Grogel,
That's a great picture. I wonder if that wasn't taken in Washington DC in front of what was the US Fish and Wildlife Museum. They supposedly had a big display of large bore shotguns that has been confiscated when anything larger than 10 gauge was outlawed in 1918.

Paul,

The 6 gauge was a breech loader? That's a new one on me, seen quite a few 6 gauge muzzle loaders but never one that took cartridges.

Pete from Oregon,

Not been around due to depression at the fact being finally proven that they actually made damascus barrels here in the US? I know how you must hate being wrong.

That William Read at Cabela's is hardly a "punt gun"!! It is far too nice. It is really just a big old fowler. Punt guns were by an large pretty crude devices, as the one pictured with the two gents holding it.

Sneider in Baltimore made at least one 4-gauge double barrel hammerless shot gun. It was displayed by the Southern California Arms Collectors Association in their display at the 1987 NRA Convention in Reno. It had 38-inch Damascus barrels and weighed 28 1/2 pounds. It would take a man like Destry to swing that fowler.

I'm with Researcher.....that gun is configured to shoot from the shoulder.

Sheesh, it's only 12 pounds...prolly lighter than a Model 21 duck gun! And I see it's sporting the "Fewless" barrel transition....how old is that guy anyway?!

Best,
Mark

4ga = 1.052"
5ga = .976"
6ga = .919"
Unlike most gauges chamber dimensions for the 4 gauge were set using thin brass shells, not sure but probably as a rifle. For paper case 4ga shotshells, chamber remained same size but bore size was reduced to about .935". Since both nominal chamber chamber size & in-between bore sizing (6/1 etc) were introduced in 1887, any 4 ga shotgun for paper cases proofed in England prior to 1887 would simply have a "6" stamped under the bbls. After 1887 a 6/1 bore size would have been .938" so many would still be proofed as a 6ga, but would have the 4/C in diamond chamber mark. One wonders if someone did not confuse a pre 1887 gun proofed as a 6ga but having 4ga chambers as a "6 Ga Shotgun".

If you have never seen a punt gun in action before... These clips have been around for a while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUiTBC0AfVE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7FeeamC4qk&feature=related

You will need a high speed connection to view the videos.


Pete

Grover Cleveland had 2 Colt 1883 hammerless guns in 8 gauge. I would love to have a Colt 8 gauge.

Very cool about the Colts, I had no idea they'd ever made one.

I've seen some pretty well made punt guns that have come out of England. Though Researcher is right about ones produced here in the US, for the most part they're pretty crude.

I've seen the pinfire that was mentioned before, it's owned by a friend here in Michigan. It's a very very well made gun.

My punt gun is crude but solid, I'm as proud of it as any gun I own.

I just recently saw a Tolley 4 bore single that somebody had faked up some engraving on that said "Chesapeake Gun Club" they'd even faked up a little brass number tag on the trigger guard. Was a decent gun, I don't know why anybody would go to the trouble to add the fake engraving though. Guy who owned it claimed he'd turned down $20,000 for it. I just chuckled and walked away, either he was a liar or had passed up an offer by a major fool. My only vocal response was I hoped he'd gotten the guys phone number.


Destry

A local museum display here had a brass punt gun. It was stockless [no wood stocks were ever on it] and marked Holland and Holland. I would guess it was about 6 ft. long.

There is considerable historic literature on the big bores, both shoulder and boat-mount fired. Snowden Slights and other names are worth reading up on. A few modern guys have written some reports on the over-Ten guns, but for reasons of attracting undue attention, they remain unpublished

One of the long time scholars of this bit of waterfowling's past is Jim Marsh, on the shallow Western End of Lake Erie, on Michigan's Eastern shore. In it's day, that arc from Lake St Clair above Detroit, around to the east end of the Sandusky Bay on the north shore of Ohio was as rich a resource as any other more famous shooting grounds.

In fact, one of the most exclusive and little known duck clubs in the world still exists on those wetlands, unchanged, with it's very limited membership of senators, presidents, and captains of industry. They used Chesapeake Bay Retrievers from the club's kennels, in the day. Today, I believe the puntmen bring their own dogs.

For many years, since mebbe 1982?, Jim Marsh would fire off his puntgun twice a day at the fall Pte Mouilee Waterfowler's Festival, north of Monroe, Mi. He is also the keeper of many of the extinct private club records, an expert on the local decoy carvers and historic hunters, has and restores all sorts of the marsh and bay craft.

He did a punt gun demonstration similar to the one seen in the U-tube videos, several years ago at Midwest Double-gun event, over near Cleveland -- some sporting clays club with ponds. The balloon slaughter was a tho a giant lawn mower had passed in an instant thru the 'flock.'

On that same misty and wet summer day he had an exhibit of big guns, including four gauges. The 4ga paper shells got swollen in the damp. So the shoulder firing of fours, as a cleanup to the Punt-load didn't go as planned. Some modern Tens, had to suffice; one doubled and gave a fella named Bret ;~`) a hearty shove.

After some foolin' about, the cartridge Four did get touched off later, and I think Jim had a picture of the gun in full recoil. It had express sight for fifty and one-hundred yards. BTW, the recoil is tolerable, but I'd say that I wouldn't want to fire it more than four or so times a day. Heavier than a .500 Nitro double, but not as sharp.

Some years ago at the annual decoy [and everything else fowl] show over in Lakeside, Ohio, west of Cleveland, I just missed a lovely 4 gauge percussion that appeared quite shootable. It was very well thought out and obviously designed for shoulder use. The bbl was only mebbe 26" long -- eight-sided from the patent [!!!] breech, to sixteen facets, to wedding ring, to round -- which gives a good weight distribution. The half stock was straight and tight grained elm, and it had a backlock action -- minimal wood removal, there. Can't remember if it had a loading rod, or not. The gun was very handy, swung well, was in good shootable condition and had sold for $450.00. Sob.

If Jim will show up here, I'm sure that he'd be a valuable resource to these sorts of discussions, as he is true treasure house of firsthand knowledge on this particular subject.

I know Jim pretty well, have visited him in his home and seen his collection.

I've never found a 4 bore to kick anything like a .500 Nitro. A big push yes, but nothing like the crushing recoil of an Express rifle.

When I had the loan of one for some driven duck shooting in England I was firing 3 ounces out of each barrel. I think I fired it nine times over the course of the morning and was no worse for wear.

When you mention the very exclusive duck club I assume you mean the Winous Point Shooting Club. I was just visiting with one of their pushers (now retired) the other day. He started pushing on the club in the 50's and was later manager of the Ottawa Club which is almost as exclusive as WPSC.


Destry

P.S. In the spirit of the thread, here's some related photos:


My big Churchill double 8 guage and a few greylag geese we killed one morning in Scotland.


Some punt gunners from the UK firing a birthday salute to the Queen.


Me holding up a Charles Lancaster muzzle loading punt gun that's still in use on Poole Harbor today.


Alan Myers firing off a single 2 bore shoulder gun that he built.


Me holding up a the punt gun that Jim used to fire off every year at the Michigan Duck Hunters Tournament. He built this one himself from scratch. For some reason this picture makes me look really short.


A young fella at the gun club one day holding my Churchill. That's his little double .410 in the other hand.


Another one of Myers showing the 2 bore that really shows off how big it is.


And finally a vintage photo of a punt gunner from the UK to show how they really did it and still do it over there.