doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Can this be fixed?

(R) (L)
MUZZLE: .037 .049
9" from muzzle: .021 .035
16" " ": .030 .051

Breech: .146 .157
6" from breech: .055 .075
9" " ": .031 .052

These are 28.5" damascus with light pitting. To me there such a big difference in the two barrels. The dent is in the left tube. I would hate to scrap these out, and will consider black powder or alternatives. What you guys think? Can the dent to repaired? Do you need other measurments to form a opinion?

Distance from the breech to dent might be useful (cowboy action shooting with a coach gun can be habit forming).
That dent looks quite deep and with barrel pitting to boot, I wouldn't bother with these.

Battle,
Can you email me the pics? these are just not clear enough or large enough.

spurshot@earthlink.net

Assuming the dent is somewhere in the middle of the barrels, the dent looks like it could be removed with opposing wedges or a hydraulic expander. With the opposing wedges, I use a concave brass block on the outside and hammer on it (with the wedges inside) to remove the last of the dent, more or less.

cheers Doug

I don't trust damascus barrels to begin with, let alone after a big dent has been jacked out. That dent looks like it almost goes through the barrel. I would be afraid the steel would be fatigued after removing a dent like that. You might want to check with a really good gunsmith before you shoot it.

Looks like its been shot with a .22 !

From the pics it looks like the metal has also been severely stretched (too far to raise a dent successfully even on steel, never mind damascus)- personally I wouldn't entertain a repair on this...

Jonty

Had you posted this on April first, we'd be OTFL.

A hack saw would definatly fix it.
L.F.

Battle,
Lots of sceptical comments, but send me some better pics by email and I'll post them to let these guys see it better and I'll let you know what I think too. My instinct says it's probably salvageable.

Jimmy, there won't be fatigue from the one deformation. It would be yielded (stretched) or a combination of yield and failed. I'm guessing it is only slightly stretched. Oscar was successful in using fluorescent magnaflux to inspect a damascus barrel. I'd recommend it too, based on what is found upon firsthand visual inspection. Magnaflux shouldn't cost much.

Hey, Chuck, do you think there is a niche for someone to specialize in Non-Destructive Examination of shotgun barrels? Or is the liability of NDE-based advice just too much for anyone to take on in our wonderful lawyer-driven world? (Or does someone specialize in this already?)

I thought I'd get some varying opinions.......thats good!

Hi Chuck, when I get home this evening, I plan on taking better pics in natural light. Then I'll email them to you.

This is a 16ga. What is the lowest psi loads that can be made up. I'd be using 2.5" brass, shooting maybe only 25 shells per year in this gun.

thanks,

Are you saying that 9" from the muzzle there is an area that is .021 thick in the barrel wall? And on top of that there is slight pitting. Unless you get on heck of a deal this might not be a great gun to own. .021 is very thin and it will dent very easily.

Unless the dent is too near your hand or face I doubt that it is the major problem. It can be removed, but what do you have? A set of barrels that are so thin, with pits that you are afraid to hone out so you are willing to only shoot one box of shells a year in it. Why bother? PASSADENA.

Mike,
Most NDT/NDI places simply inspect per a specification and provide the results. They will tell you if they find "indications" or obvious cracks in writing. That's it. They would never give an assessment of whether a barrel is "safe" or any advice about it's strength, IMO. Safety assessments on barrels should be reserved for those either highly experienced and educated in the subject or a proof house, IMO.

Ky Jon,
I appreciate your comments. However I'm not afraid of honing them, no need to. The dent is in the left tube which the numbers show having good wall thickness? Its the right tube 9" from muzzle thats really thin. Barrels ring very well.

I wouldn't be shooting this gun much not that I'm afraid(maybe i should be). But because I don't clay shoot I only hunt. Therfore I have other guns I perfer to use. That said, because I own this gun I want to least have the gun capable of with standing approiate hand loads. Thats why I will only use say a box of shell per year.
Keep them coming I have rhino skin!

battle:
I don't see anywhere that you've indicated the maker and overall condition of this gun. I would think that may be a determinent as to whether it's even worth considerting fixing.
Jim

looks like a Fox from the rib. Oooops, you said damascus.

Its a Manufrance Ideal grade 3.Whether its worth fixing..........well my wallet or my wife will dedcide that.

Look all I want is to be able to shoot this occasionally at maybe when I go woodcock hunting(which is seldom)or quail. From the wall thickness numbers given and dent repaired(if repairable) and hand loads at what psi? I mean what is lowest I possibly could get by with? Dent is not close to hand or head.

Battle,
Don't fret too much yet. Let's get a good look at it first.

Hell I'm no frettin, take more than that to shake me up! LOL,LOL!

All goofing aside, I do appreciate everyone input from this board. Theres no other place like it. Its where I've learned not to make a mistake like this gun again. But can't change the past. So I'm not going to cry over a little spilled milk!
Cheers,

Even if after the dent was removed and there metal there was too weak to allow shooting. Couldn't you sleeve them? Expensive but possible?

Thanks for the response, Chuck. My college is getting more deeply into the NDE/NDI world and I'm always trying to think of applications. But I suspect that shotgun barrels (especially Damanscus) are as much art as science, and NDE would only work to give you a "no go" if obvious cracking was discovered. I know gunsmiths have used simple tests like liquid penetrants to check recievers,slides, etc. for cracking--do you know of other applications that are used in the gunsmith shops?

I'm no help at all. I value the board for generous considerations provided by those who are more knowledgeable and experienced. But my life with aircraft, scuba and parachutes makes me think of myself as a risk-taker. I wouldn't risk it.

If you really love the gun and want to spend the money you could always have Teague do liners. http://www.teaguechokes.co.uk/barrel_restoration.html I guess that does not answer your question, but it is always an option.

Take care,

Mike

I'd Teague or sub-gage it.

You'd be above the region of 20 to 25 ksi worst-loaction hoop stresses, widely-observed in vintage bbls. (These stresses are consistent with specific "shoot/do not shoot" opinions posted by Oscar, DT, and other experts.)

Based on your measurements and pressure curves published by Bell (DGJ) and Butler ("The American Shotgun", heavy BP loads (3 3/4 - 1 1/4, Bell) would create ~ 32 ksi at 6" and ~ 38 ksi at 9".


Lighter loads ( 3 - 1 1/8, FFg, Butler) still create ~ 19 ksi and ~ 26 ksi at the same locations. The latter is at or above the very high end of the envelope. (These are 12 ga pressures but geometrically-similar 16 ga loads should be close.) A LIGHT BP load (the 16 ga equivalent of 2 3/4 - 1 oz in a 12 ga, using FFg (no finer) should produce a bit less pressure, but I have no tested data.

With pitting, and the dent (even removed), I'd use some form of stress-containing liners.

Mike,
I'm not aware of widespread use of NDI methods in gunsmithing shops. There are probably many reasons, but most probably center around convenient availability of the process and economics.

Airplane culture has the NDI process applied to most things before any overhaul work is done. This eliminates bad parts before much labor is put into them. Restoration of old guns, especially guns notorious for cracking frames like the Flues, might benefit with a NDI prior to beginning restoration. Some will probably argue that it's not necessary since the failures of guns is fairly low, but then so is failures or crack findings in airplane parts.

I have used a couple of NDI places around my area for airplane parts and car parts over the years. They usually have a minimum charge for a simple one part inspection. That charge seems to have been about $45 quite a number of years ago. I'm guessing it's close to $100 nowadays.

Thanks, Chuck; that's interesting!
Failures of gun parts ARE fairly low, but certain ones, as we all know from experience and following this forum, can be devastating in various degrees and ways. And with older, rarer, more valuable guns I would think $100 for some insurance that you aren't going to lose some hide/sight/fingers plus ruining a valuable, scarce gun would be no big deal.
For example, I'd sure not like to see the Manufrance Ideal that is the subject of this thread get wrecked. It isn't super-super valuable (is it?), but it is a unique design with many followers that will probably never be made again. It would be a damn shame to ruin it and I'm glad Battle is exercising due diligence.

Thanks Mike,
No......its not super expensive. But it is my favorite design! Small bore, lite weight, round action with retractable sling! How can you not fall for this little Frenchy?

Battle;
Went back & looked & perhaps am missing it, but one thing I couldn't find is, Where is the location of this dent? This would in my opinion have a large bearing upon it's possible repair.
Miller

Hi Miller,
I'm at work but me thinks its half way, 'bout 14".
Cheers,