doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Sorry OT, Win. '97 Diamond

What constitutes a diamond grade? Is the metal stamped somewhere? Is it the diamond in the stock? Were they all English style stocks? Did they have corn cob forearms or only the checkered ones? What years were they made? Sorry for all the questions and also OT.

Black Diamond '97s had a black diamond(probably ebony) inlaid in the grip area, both sides, I think. I had a black diamond trap 97.
Mine was also a straight grip, said "Trap Grade" on the bolt, had checkering on the grip and the small forend handle. I believe it had some matting on the receiver but the barrel was smooth. Very interesting guns. Mine was very easy to pump, despite all the part movement.

Dave, I've handled a couple 97 Diamonds in the past year. Both were without checkering, maybe worn or sanded off. Both had the diamond in the grip area and both were straight grip. I bought a mint field grade 97, built in 1954 and its a riot to shoot. Love the clank,clunk of the action. Records show they built the hammergun all the way into late 50's and over a million to boot. Can you imagine anyone buying a hammergun in place of the Model 12. Go figure. Hope all is well back home. Randy

I have only seen a couple of 'black diamond' 97's, one I own. It has a straight grip w/a small black diamond inlet into its sides and the phrase 'TRAP GUN' hand engraved on it's bolt. It is full choked and has a stippled rib [not raised or pround of the bbl., just stippled]. The forearm & buttstock are nicely checquered and the wood is well above average & nicely matched. This gun had an extra bbl with it in a fitted leg-o-mutton case that the seller was supposed to supply later, but neither was ever forthcoming, so I cannot comment on whether the bbl was numbered the same or ??. That was in 1965. The bbl on the gun is numbered to the receiver, but bears no #1 or 2. I suspect it is the original bbl and the other bbl .. I just don't know.

The other black diamond I have seen matched the one just described. Oh, & 2&3/4" chamber, so marked. I suspect, but do not know for certain that the fit & finish [absense of file marks & polish] got special attention. Mine is really slick and it throws some dandy extra full patterns with several varieties of ammunition w/ # 6, 7.5 & 8 sized shot. I never patterned it with anything larger. I won a few hams at 'turkey' shoots w/it many years ago using #8's in the old Fed flyer loads w/paper cases. The magic 'X' kind of turkey shoots where you paid a dollar and took your shot at a piece of paper with an 'X' drawn on it .. closest to the 'X' won the ham. I've shot a couple of 98's with it from the 16 too. Big fun!


Perhaps Don Moody can add better detail on these interesting old guns for us when he gets a few minutes time.

I do recall seeing a Black Diamond Grade Model '97 with a pistol grip stock but it must have been a special order...probably a Pigeon Grade. If you find one, it's a rare bird. My Black Diamond circa 1922 has the engraved "Trap Gun" on the bolt, a special order 32" matted (stippled) rib line on the barrel and is fitted with a gorgeous stick of black walnut featuring the straight "English" wrist with ebony diamond inset, a curved hard rubber butt plate and fine checking at both wrist and fore end. The 19th century open hammer design is still fun to shoot in the 21st century...guess that's why it stayed in production for 60 years!

If you are considering buying a diamond grade '97 or Model 12, keep in mind that there are a lot of phoney ones out there. You will never know if it is original or not unless you have the original paperwork (which is hard to get)or some type of evidence proving it to be so. Good luck.

The gun referred to as a Black Diamond Model 1897 or, later, Model 97, is actually the Trap Gun or Trap Grade. I don't believe there is any catalog reference to the Black Diamond Grade. The Trap Gun was made with Black Diamonds behind the receiver, with or without the matted barrel, with or without the stippled receiver top, and, apparently, with or without checkering depending on the era and the way it was ordered. I have an uncheckered Trap Gun that appears to never have been checkered. As far as "documentation" goes, the Cody Firearms Museum offers factory letters of provenance on some serial number ranges of Model 1897 and Model 97 Winchesters. Check their website for exact number ranges. Regardless of how fancy a Black Diamond 97 is, it is not a Pigeon Grade (or Pigeon Gun)unless it has an Ulrich designed (and probably executed) engraving pattern rarely pictured in early catalogs. The breech bolt on original Pigeon Guns was stamped "Pigeon Gun". It is debated whether some Trap Guns were made without the "Trap Gun" logo stamped (not engraved) on the breech bolt. If a 97 has checkered wood and a matted barrel but no black diamonds, it is probably a Tournament Grade. Tournament Grade guns can be assumed to be original if the word
"Tournament" is stamped under the buttplate. It is easy to fake checkered wood and the black diamonds, but it is nearly impossible to fake the matted barrel top, the stamped breech bolt, and the stippled receiver top. Most faked black diamond inlays are poorly inlaid and incorrectly placed and are easy to spot by an experienced collector.

Eightbore,
Thanks for the added information on the 97 'black diamond' trap guns. I'll have to dig mine out & take a look at the bolt marking again, I was going from memory on the 'engraving', a slanted block print, if I recall correctly. I'm sure you are correct about it being rolled, but its very crisp & sharp, how ever it was done. I always just assumed it was engraved .. that's the trouble with assumptions.

I had the pleasure several years ago of restoring a c. 1898 Model '97' Pigeon Gun with the full factory works done to it. The gun was in very good condition metal-wise and needed only some oil taken out of the stock head and then refinished to match the original.

As for engraving, I can vouch that there was no 'roll stamping' on any of it.....don't know about the others out there. The bolt has 'Pigeon Gun' engraved in a flowing script with a decorative border at its outer margins; it has an engraved pigeon immediately forward of the buttstock topside; ejection port side of frame has a hunter & dog with one dead quail on the ground & two dead in the air. Left side of frame has a very detailed scene of box pigeon shooting right down to the five trip lines. All hand-cut engraving and with very fancy XXX Winchester wood. It is a beautiful old piece and only wish it were mine.

This gun (not a knock-off or upgrade) has been with the same owner (a shooting friend) for over forty years now, who actually won it back in the early 60's on a coin toss. I guess we could conclude that they're a bit more esteemed today.

Rob H.

I have been caught talking off the top of my head again. OK, here it is. I just inspected an early Trap Gun and it appears I was mistaken about the logo on the breech bolt. It appears to be very nicely engraved, as it also is on the Pigeon Gun. In addition, the stippling or matting on the top of the receiver is not identical on all guns, some appearing to be chased or engraved side to side, some appear to be somewhat matted, and parts of some do, in fact, appear to be stippled, especially in the concave area at the very front of the receiver. I have one that is done by one method in the convex area and by another method in the concave area. Whatever method they used, it is beautiful work. Robert Harris describes the Pigeon Gun well. Mine, which I sold to a fellow collector, was in the 342,000 series, was in the odd standard catalog configuration of 28" full choke matted top barrel. Some barrels are matted in a continuous pattern that follows the contour of the round barrel. Some are matted in a faceted or three semi-flat pattern. Again, whatever they did, it was beautiful. The engraving on the Pigeon Gun cannot be appreciated without a glass. In the far background of the pigeon shooting scene, there are figures of spectators that no one would notice without the use of a magnifier. The quail hunting scene is a tribute to the Model 1897's relatively new found capability of taking more than two birds on a covey rise.

Love reading the reports on the Diamond Grade. How late into the 1900's were they made? I would have almost thought they would have stopped making graded '97's after the Mod. 12 came out. I would also assume, that like the Mod. 12 Trap, not all '97's were marked "trap" either. Of course I know there are probably as many made up Mod. 12 trap guns as there are Mod. '97's.

What do you suppose this one whould be??? It,s not marked "trap gun" anywhere, Is a 16 guage, and in the box it came in way back when. Have thought about getting it lettered and still might someday.
Kraft (And No, it aint for sale)

That appears to be a very nicely made imitation of a Trap Grade Model 97. What does the end label on the box say? Of course, anyone could special order any variation they wanted, but the pictured gun doesn't resemble any factory gun I have ever seen. Nice gun though. I have seen some very attractive late 97s with checkered standard grade wood.

Eightbore;
Don't know much about it except that it was my grandfathers ---- my grandmother ordered it for him for one of his birthdays --- how long ago I don't know. That was the story I got. He shot it practically not at all and it is "new". Could a "Black Diamond" be "ordered" in the later guns??? As far as the end of the carton,we will have to dig it out again and look. Thanks;
Kraft

I agree, Bill, something just doesn't look right. Very nice looking gun though.

I don't know about the Black Diamond Model 97s, but the Black Diamond Model 12s have a diamond stamped in the metal(at least many, or most of them do). It is located on the front of the barrel extension.

I remember discussing that situation a couple of years ago. I don't remember where we left off.

Bill, I don't remember either. The few that I have see did have the diamond stamp.
I did check a friends 20 gauge Black Diamond that has two barrels(both to the receiver). One had the diamond and one didn't.

On Kraft's 16 .. I think it is simply a 16 black diamond model 97, but obviously a special ordered gun. I say that because I owned for some years a solid rib 16ga. model 12 'SKEET' so marked with nickel steel bbl and 2&9/16" chamber, factory skeet choke and to die for wood. At another time I owned a solid rib model 42 'Trap' so marked w/2 & 1/2" chamber and full choke. We all know there was never an official 16 ga skeet event, but Winchester did make some very few model 12 16ga. 'skeet's anyway. We also know that there was never a .410 trap event, but it didn't keep them from making some 42 'trap's anyway, either. I have also seen other model 42 'trap's w/3" chambers, all were full choked and had fancy factory wood and checquering.

A nice 16 in a model 97 black diamond configuration would have had a lot of appeal to certain discerning sports. There were at least some folks who viewed 16's then as many view 20's today .. a dandy all round small bore cartridge.

And too 16's [ammo] were plentiful everywhere, until at least the late 1960's and model 97's could handle them all with impunity. Look at the old shotgun pics posted on another recent thread; the guys with new guns had 97's! In some ways, they played the same role to the older doubles as the Beretta 390's did to the 1100's on the Sporting Clays courses. A 97 was a very desirable gun to have and not everyone thought hammerless was an 'improvement';-) Some still don't.

What choke & bbl length does your grandfather's gun have, Kraft? Do you know what game he hunted? You have a very interesting heirloom, one you should be very proud of. To me, it speaks well of your grandparents, very well.

As I said earlier, there is no way of proving a Black Diamond to be authentic unless there is some documentation of it. Since they continued making them for so long, they could be special ordered in any fashion in their later years just like the Model 12. So, they did not necessarily have to be a Trap Grade to be a Black Diamond. As far as the diamond stamping, we discussed this a while back on whether a Diamond Grade Model 12 had to have a diamond stamped on the magazine band to be authentic. I have personally talked to probably the best authorities on the Model 12 over the past few years about this and they all have different opinions on whether the Model 12s have to have the stamp to be authentic. So, there has never been any proof of that either. Unless you have the paperwork or some kind of proof, you'll never know for sure.

I know one guy near here who is an excellent checkerer and wood finisher. I know and have seen at least two Winchesters that he has replaced the wood with original Diamond Grade wood and sold them as Black Diamonds. And you would not have been able to tell the difference.

Here is an old trap gun . It's a bit worn but shoots well. I'm not a big fan of restoration. Feeling a gun like this has earned its age. It also has its original unaltered butt plate. Which is getting very difficult to find on these guns. Most have been fitted with pads. I have copies of old catalogs camparing the different grades that I will scan for anyone interested. Whe I got this gun t was missing the little flathead adjustment screw on the face of the receiver. I could never get the slide to funtion. Then I replaced it with one off a parts gun. Problem solved. I thought that screw was to keep the gun tight. Does it do more or was that just a strang coincidense? Paul D
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Hammerback

Love the gun. This is what a gun should look like.

At least a shucker should look like this.

Beautiful gun. I sent you an email.

Hammerback, I believe that may be one of the rare and unusual uncheckered Trap Guns. Does your gun show no sign of sanded checkering? I have one that could be its twin with wood that is still of a dimension that would indicate that it never was checkered. Does your pictured gun have a Trap Gun marked breech bolt and matted barrel. Mine has the marked breech bolt but the barrel is plain. I feel that my gun is absolutely original, just an odd variation like yours. I think some of the earlier Trap Gun examples predated matted barrels. I would sure like to see a Cody letter documenting the "plain wood" variation. Nice gun, by the way.

Bill, my ole eyes have to use reading glasses, but I can see the faint lines of the worn checkering pattern.

Very faint outline of checkering pattern shows on grip and forend. If i were to run across a black diamond how much more are they worth than a regular grade in same condition? Bobby

Mr. Murphy;
Might be just me, but I could swear there is some traces of the checkering pattern still showing on Hamerbacks gun. Don't seem to be a "uncheckered one". Appreciate your input on our gun. Do you think it would letter??? Or should we even bother --- would sure hate to find out it is a counterfit after all these years. (And if it was, I would still treasure it just the same.) There are no markings at all on the end of the box, by the way. Hope to someday maybe find the "paperwork" for it --- she saved everything, and it is probably still down there in the old house somewhere.
And to Mr. TW in Texas ---- Thank you Sir for the nice write up. The 16 is a 28 inch modified, --- just about right for what my grandad and his buddies hunted. That being mostly pheasants and rabbits - the railroad ditches south of town used to be loaded with them. (Went back there to pick black raspberries this past summer, and the right of ways along the tracks had been sprayed with something that burned them down to bare dirt for about 30 yards on each side. Even knocked the leaves off of some of the trees that were close enough.) They also shot many, many ducks in the cornfields -- the flocks of ducks would come up from the bottoms, especially on a west wind and work the fields in the evenings, and all you had to do was lay between the rows and wait. Can't remember the last time I saw a flock of ducks working a feild, but there aren't many cornfiels that don't get fall plowed now. So... that's what he hunted. Also a round or two of trap when they had a few extra bucks later on. They all talked often of the depression and not being able to get shells durring the war, and making every shot count. That they did.
As always, hoping this finds everyone well;
Kraft

Eightbore. Yes my gun has faint checkering. It is also marked Trap Gun on the bolt and has a rolled rib. Paul Driscoll

The Cody website includes information about which blocks of Model 1897 and Model 97 serial numbers are available for research. I thought I saw a faint line on a checkering pattern on the grip but I was willing to blame it on camera trickery. My uncheckered gun has no hint of checkering, has fancy figure and black diamonds. The gun is so worn that it is not likely anyone's attempt to fake a Trap Gun. And it has a Trap Gun breech bolt. I should see whether it is among the numbers that can be documented at Cody. I did get a Brush Gun documented by Cody letter, but the letter gave no information except that it is an original Brush Gun and not a rebarrelled standard field gun. I guess it was worth it. A Trap Grade should be worth a bit more than a field gun in the same condition, quite a bit more in the higher levels of condition.

Mr. Murphy;
I dug the old gun out again and looked for the stamped diamond on the reciever and barrel extention - found nothing. However, there is a letter "C" stamped above the serial number on the reciever only. Hadn't ever noticed that before. Would you or anyone know what that means?? Will wait for your answer before checking into the Cody letter.
Looked it over again really good --- Man, the markings and stampings and the edges etc. are just so crisp and perfect --- Can't see it being a counterfit. Well if nothing else, it got another good wipe down and put back away.
Have a good one;
Kraft

The letters("B","C","D" or "E") stamped over the serial numbers on Model 1897s indicated changes(improvements) in the action. The "C" guns had the ejector spring added, the receiver was made 1-1/2 hundredths thicker on each side, slide lock spring changed and rounded end magazine plugs. This started in February 1898 after 47000 guns had been made.

I came across this at the Bass Pro shop website. It has some pictures of the bolt engraving:

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores...mp;mode=viewGun

Best,

Mike

Eightbore wrote: "The quail hunting scene is a tribute to the Model 1897's relatively new found capability of taking more than two birds on a covey rise."

The gun I linked is a Pigeon grade and has the quail scene Bill described. You can also see the black diamond in one of the stock pictures.