doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Sorry OT, Win. '97 Diamond

What constitutes a diamond grade? Is the metal stamped somewhere? Is it the diamond in the stock? Were they all English style stocks? Did they have corn cob forearms or only the checkered ones? What years were they made? Sorry for all the questions and also OT.

Black Diamond '97s had a black diamond(probably ebony) inlaid in the grip area, both sides, I think. I had a black diamond trap 97.
Mine was also a straight grip, said "Trap Grade" on the bolt, had checkering on the grip and the small forend handle. I believe it had some matting on the receiver but the barrel was smooth. Very interesting guns. Mine was very easy to pump, despite all the part movement.

Dave, I've handled a couple 97 Diamonds in the past year. Both were without checkering, maybe worn or sanded off. Both had the diamond in the grip area and both were straight grip. I bought a mint field grade 97, built in 1954 and its a riot to shoot. Love the clank,clunk of the action. Records show they built the hammergun all the way into late 50's and over a million to boot. Can you imagine anyone buying a hammergun in place of the Model 12. Go figure. Hope all is well back home. Randy

I have only seen a couple of 'black diamond' 97's, one I own. It has a straight grip w/a small black diamond inlet into its sides and the phrase 'TRAP GUN' hand engraved on it's bolt. It is full choked and has a stippled rib [not raised or pround of the bbl., just stippled]. The forearm & buttstock are nicely checquered and the wood is well above average & nicely matched. This gun had an extra bbl with it in a fitted leg-o-mutton case that the seller was supposed to supply later, but neither was ever forthcoming, so I cannot comment on whether the bbl was numbered the same or ??. That was in 1965. The bbl on the gun is numbered to the receiver, but bears no #1 or 2. I suspect it is the original bbl and the other bbl .. I just don't know.

The other black diamond I have seen matched the one just described. Oh, & 2&3/4" chamber, so marked. I suspect, but do not know for certain that the fit & finish [absense of file marks & polish] got special attention. Mine is really slick and it throws some dandy extra full patterns with several varieties of ammunition w/ # 6, 7.5 & 8 sized shot. I never patterned it with anything larger. I won a few hams at 'turkey' shoots w/it many years ago using #8's in the old Fed flyer loads w/paper cases. The magic 'X' kind of turkey shoots where you paid a dollar and took your shot at a piece of paper with an 'X' drawn on it .. closest to the 'X' won the ham. I've shot a couple of 98's with it from the 16 too. Big fun!


Perhaps Don Moody can add better detail on these interesting old guns for us when he gets a few minutes time.

I do recall seeing a Black Diamond Grade Model '97 with a pistol grip stock but it must have been a special order...probably a Pigeon Grade. If you find one, it's a rare bird. My Black Diamond circa 1922 has the engraved "Trap Gun" on the bolt, a special order 32" matted (stippled) rib line on the barrel and is fitted with a gorgeous stick of black walnut featuring the straight "English" wrist with ebony diamond inset, a curved hard rubber butt plate and fine checking at both wrist and fore end. The 19th century open hammer design is still fun to shoot in the 21st century...guess that's why it stayed in production for 60 years!

If you are considering buying a diamond grade '97 or Model 12, keep in mind that there are a lot of phoney ones out there. You will never know if it is original or not unless you have the original paperwork (which is hard to get)or some type of evidence proving it to be so. Good luck.

The gun referred to as a Black Diamond Model 1897 or, later, Model 97, is actually the Trap Gun or Trap Grade. I don't believe there is any catalog reference to the Black Diamond Grade. The Trap Gun was made with Black Diamonds behind the receiver, with or without the matted barrel, with or without the stippled receiver top, and, apparently, with or without checkering depending on the era and the way it was ordered. I have an uncheckered Trap Gun that appears to never have been checkered. As far as "documentation" goes, the Cody Firearms Museum offers factory letters of provenance on some serial number ranges of Model 1897 and Model 97 Winchesters. Check their website for exact number ranges. Regardless of how fancy a Black Diamond 97 is, it is not a Pigeon Grade (or Pigeon Gun)unless it has an Ulrich designed (and probably executed) engraving pattern rarely pictured in early catalogs. The breech bolt on original Pigeon Guns was stamped "Pigeon Gun". It is debated whether some Trap Guns were made without the "Trap Gun" logo stamped (not engraved) on the breech bolt. If a 97 has checkered wood and a matted barrel but no black diamonds, it is probably a Tournament Grade. Tournament Grade guns can be assumed to be original if the word
"Tournament" is stamped under the buttplate. It is easy to fake checkered wood and the black diamonds, but it is nearly impossible to fake the matted barrel top, the stamped breech bolt, and the stippled receiver top. Most faked black diamond inlays are poorly inlaid and incorrectly placed and are easy to spot by an experienced collector.

Eightbore,
Thanks for the added information on the 97 'black diamond' trap guns. I'll have to dig mine out & take a look at the bolt marking again, I was going from memory on the 'engraving', a slanted block print, if I recall correctly. I'm sure you are correct about it being rolled, but its very crisp & sharp, how ever it was done. I always just assumed it was engraved .. that's the trouble with assumptions.

I had the pleasure several years ago of restoring a c. 1898 Model '97' Pigeon Gun with the full factory works done to it. The gun was in very good condition metal-wise and needed only some oil taken out of the stock head and then refinished to match the original.

As for engraving, I can vouch that there was no 'roll stamping' on any of it.....don't know about the others out there. The bolt has 'Pigeon Gun' engraved in a flowing script with a decorative border at its outer margins; it has an engraved pigeon immediately forward of the buttstock topside; ejection port side of frame has a hunter & dog with one dead quail on the ground & two dead in the air. Left side of frame has a very detailed scene of box pigeon shooting right down to the five trip lines. All hand-cut engraving and with very fancy XXX Winchester wood. It is a beautiful old piece and only wish it were mine.

This gun (not a knock-off or upgrade) has been with the same owner (a shooting friend) for over forty years now, who actually won it back in the early 60's on a coin toss. I guess we could conclude that they're a bit more esteemed today.

Rob H.

I have been caught talking off the top of my head again. OK, here it is. I just inspected an early Trap Gun and it appears I was mistaken about the logo on the breech bolt. It appears to be very nicely engraved, as it also is on the Pigeon Gun. In addition, the stippling or matting on the top of the receiver is not identical on all guns, some appearing to be chased or engraved side to side, some appear to be somewhat matted, and parts of some do, in fact, appear to be stippled, especially in the concave area at the very front of the receiver. I have one that is done by one method in the convex area and by another method in the concave area. Whatever method they used, it is beautiful work. Robert Harris describes the Pigeon Gun well. Mine, which I sold to a fellow collector, was in the 342,000 series, was in the odd standard catalog configuration of 28" full choke matted top barrel. Some barrels are matted in a continuous pattern that follows the contour of the round barrel. Some are matted in a faceted or three semi-flat pattern. Again, whatever they did, it was beautiful. The engraving on the Pigeon Gun cannot be appreciated without a glass. In the far background of the pigeon shooting scene, there are figures of spectators that no one would notice without the use of a magnifier. The quail hunting scene is a tribute to the Model 1897's relatively new found capability of taking more than two birds on a covey rise.