doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Winchester M21

King, it was not because he had a different view, it was because of the way he seems to express it when a Model 21 is the subject.

Miller, Your slam is well noted!
I know that your Lefevers are fine shotguns. Their just not mine, but I don't belittle them at every turn(in fact. I never have). Your opinion that the average 21 owners are arrogant is not a fair assessment. The same might be said owners of other well known name shotguns, but they tend to get a pass. JMO.

Well said, Walt.

God shoots a 32" 20 gauge Lefever side cocker. However, he carries a Model 21 round frame Duck when it's raining. There is a use for every gun of quality.

Miller - Do you really think Winchester marketers plotted to leak evidence of incompetent cost accounting to justify a price increase? A pretty extravagant suggestion when apparent and mundane business world realities explain Winchester's operating and pricing decisions.

Gene Hill and Don Zutz wrote good things about the M-21 (without denigrating other guns or gunmakers) and influenced me. I'm an average M-21 owner. I think Lefevers are wonderful guns, and would love to own one if I could easily find one suitable for my kind of hunting.

My question to you is similar to Ole Cowboy's. How many arrogant M-21 owners have you crossed paths with to warrant the generalized slur? My personal experience is very different, but perhaps your efforts to lift yourself to God's level are rewarded with insights hidden from me.

Please forgive my sarcasm. You contribute a wealth of practical knowledge to this board. I've enjoyed exchanging a few private messages with you in the past about your views of the M-21, and your comments were quite different from the above. Talk on the internet sometimes takes on depersonalized aspects a little like "road rage".

Jay

First & foremost someone please tell me what I have said that "Disparaged" a model 21. I have said on several occasions they are a strong sturdy gun, made of modern materials & capable of holding up to continued use. They just don't happen to be my preferred shotgun. Seems as if I don't faint & swoon at ones mere mention I am disparaging it. I have been told "Here" on this board several times I was "Jealous" because I couldn't afford one, by people who had no idea as to the stance of my bank account, they were simply unable to accept, I didn't want one. I call that arrogance. What I have done on several occasions is refute some wild & ridiculous claims. As an example, one poster (I have no idea now who & could really care less) in all seriousness thought Winchester was the first maker of dbl shotguns to incorporate a bbl check. He tried to "Prove" it by the fact it was covered by a patent. Naturally I refuted that, though I have no idea who used the first one, one was shown on a patent drawing of 1872 by F S Dangerfield, though this was not the patented feature, probably was already in general use. So it goes, try & point out a few facts to those who simply elevate a particular item beyond all reality & you're labled a "Basher". So be it, make a wild claim & I'll refute it if I have something to refute with.
As to the "Lost Money" claim, why would this info be released at all. Many, Many Co's have made items on which they made very little if any money, in order to promote good will & "Cultivate" sales in other areas. I have no doubt at all the day winchester put the 21 on they market they knew it would never be a big seller. After all they had spent about the last 75 yrs or so promoting "Repeating Arms", Nota Bene, WRA Co. Their co in fact was a major player in the fact it would not be a big seller. WHY? indeed did they after some 25 yrs of productiuon declare that everyone sold had been at a loss. And I did indeed read at the time, that it was due to not being charged it's share of overhead, not that mat'l & labor cost more than it's selling price. As to the accuracy of that statement I have no idea, I have no idea actually, if any of them lost money at all. Either way it would not be a factor in what I would be willing to purchase one for. This always seems to be mentioned to make them appear more "Valuable", though for the life of me I cannot understand why.

Miller, the "Nota Bene" is just TOOOOO much. I ,as the Perazzi guy (dealer) admit that I have no knowledge in that language. I own a number of Model 21's and like them. So, big deal.You live in Lynchburg, TN and my father's family lived in Lynchburg,VA. You can not do alcohol there and the other place has Farwell's group doing the same. Keep it up.I only wish that I may meet you face to face some day.Thank you so much for your posts.
Bill

Miller, I have no quarrel with you correcting erroneous statements of ignorant owners. That is not disparaging the gun. But the word fits when you assert that M-21 owners are collectively arrogant based on your experience with merely an ignorant few. Jay

Gunflint;
I concede you are right on that point. It was a very poor choice of words & as you say does not fit all 21 owners by a long shot. To you & others to which it does not fit I offer my sincere appology & will try to refrain from such statements. I do not even recall the names of those I did really consider arrogant, there were a few, I am almost certain you were not among them.

Oh c'mon 2-piper. Some of us just like to tease and pull each others chains once in a while. I for one know you can't be all that bad. After all, you do live in the heart of Tennessee Walking Horse country. You do know it is the only horse that God put his whole heart and soul into, don't you? So, do they still have the Celebration in Shelbyville?

Can we get a few more pictures of Robert's Model 21??? That should put everyone in the right state of mind!!!
All the best

The words of Walt should give everyone the right perspective. I like NIDs but 21s are great guns. All of us like guns that that we like and tend to be sensitive about them. I personally have 5 21s and enjoy them immensely. Doubles vary a ton and 21s are not expection. I can see a person getting different perceptions of 21s from different guns. My 20 gauge custom is only 6 pounds 6 ounces and a delight in the fields. My trap skeet is over a pound more and does not seem as agile. It of course was never meant to be. So like Walt says like what you like, express your opinion in a way that demonstrates knowledge and kindness and be helpful to each other. Trust me guys the people outside the world of doubles far, far outweight us and we have to stick together no matter what we own. I own NIDs as well by the way and think they are fun. All of them are great in their own way.

Kind regards, HuntersDad