doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Winchester M21

It would have been reasonable to make all the frames in one run - one batch. That would have saved considerably on tooling set-up costs. Does anyone know if that is, in fact, what happened?

Rocketman,

I've hesitated to respond, because others here are certainly more versed about frame production than I am (likely Don Moody for one). All I know is what I can pull from Schwing's book.

Schwing stated on pg. 235 of his M21 book that Winchester did produce their frames in very large lots - with over 5,000 having been made the first year of production (1931). He then goes on to mention that only 615 guns sold that first year despite company speculation that they'd be doing 'big business' with the M21 - inspite of the ongoing depression.

The economy of mass producing the frames makes real sense, but how they were pulled by ser. number and put into final assembly apparently did (does) not, as he relates on preceding pg. 234. He mentions previously numbered frames being buggered up and scrapped during production, as well as entire trays of serialed rough frames languishing around for as many as ten years before being called up. This is how he explains the unreliability of dating M21s by ser. no., which is 'why' we're clearly dependent upon the Cody Museum for anything substantive.

Not that illuminating a post on my part, but that's how it came about according to Schwing, and I hope it's of some use.

Rob Harris

How'd you manage that Jimmy, did you find out after you bought the gun, did you know before you bought it or did you search it out?

I'd love to have a nice gun that came out of the factory on the same day I did, the best I have managed is to garner some minty M94's and Marlin 336's from 1955.

Robert Harris's comment about the Winchester expectation of "big business" in 1930 reminds me of some ads I have found in early magazines. The 21 was introduced at about $57.50. In the years following introduction, I have seen ads offering brand new 21s for as low as $36.00. Times were bad and apparently Winchester sent the new gun to jobbers and dealers for very low prices. I personally have sold 21s for prices that seemed like $36.00 just a few days after I sold them.

O'Connor's Shotgun Book says Winchester never made a nickel on the production-line guns.

Plus, you have to keep in mind that many people ordered certain serial numbers. Supposedly, according to Herb Orre, the first 21 ever made was serial number 2167. On that day, he was supposed to be 21 years, 6 months and 7 days old. Or so the story goes. I don't think that anyone knows if that story is true or not.

How I got that 21 is a long story, Rob. But to make it short, I bought the gun from Steve Barnett at the Louisville show and was surprised to find out the final inspection and shipping dates until I inquired from Cody. It has beautiful wood and is all original. I would love to keep it in the family and give it to my son. One day I hope to run it up to Brent Umberger and have it gone through and cleaned up.

Eightbore,

In 1933 A&F sold Standard grade 21's for $78, if you wanted a ST the price was $87. Interestingly, most of the guns in the A&F inventory then are marked "consigned" as apparently Winchester was not requiring payment until the guns were sold.

KB... I love your response! There are all kinds of folks, with a myriad of interests (or lack of!). I would venture that many of us enjoy knowing the history of our toys, and of the times in which they were made.

You're right, KB. Winchester never made any money off of the 21. But it was always John Olin's baby so they kept making them. He was making plenty off of the Model 12, roller skates, ammo and flashlights.