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4 members (Chad Linder, SKB, 2 invisible),
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Forums10
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Apr 27th, 2024
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
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The Norwich, Boston and Worcester doubles shotguns are among the last to be sorted out by American double collectors. There are plenty of model variations and makers/inventors whose history is entangled together...W H Davenport, Martin Bye, Reinhart Torkelson, Ethan Allen, Forehand, Iver Johnson, widow Johnson, NR Davis, and others have yet come to light. Maybe these photos will spur someones interest...      I had a hard time viewing the photo's...If anyone can't see the photos, please let me know and I will correct them...
Last edited by Robert Chambers; 01/05/08 07:45 PM.
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Sidelock
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Mr. Chambers:
This was made by W.H. Davenport in Norwich, Conn. from 1890-1900 which was previously in Providence, RI from 1880-1883? Do I have my dates correct?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Sidelock
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Raimey, I'm not sure about the dates, but this gun has a May 27 1902 patent date stamped on it. When I compared it to the patent record, it turned up patent # US701158...I checked it to see if Davenport was still in Norwich in 1902 and he was... http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US00...26RS=PN/0701158I hope this link works... I have about 10-15 Davenport patents...some are obviously for doubles...some are for single shots...or so I thought, until today...three of the four patent dates on this double were issued for and drawn on single shots...565606 and D33075 are the other two...there is however another patent date Dec 15 '91...but I don't have a match in my files for that date...maybe I'm reading it wrong...I'll post another pic so you can decide for yourself... I would love to contribute to a thread about this last frontier, unfortunately I have only a few (4)catalogs, but a mountain of patents. Bob Chambers
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Mr. Chambers:
What part did widow Johnson have?
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Sidelock
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Looks like an anvil and vice rolled into one.  One could proly shoot Imperial 'Flechette' load out of that thing! 
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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The Norwich, Boston and Worcester doubles shotguns are among the last to be sorted out by American double collectors. It's evident why they were last.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Raimey,
I think Iver was holding some pretty good patents when he checked out...and he had some profitable patents awaiting issue...When those patents were granted, although they were Iver's design, they were ultimately issued to his widow...maybe even jointly issued to her and Torkelson...or something like that...it's been quite a few years since I collected those...but I would be happy to revue them or post them
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Sidelock
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Maybe these photos will spur someones interest...
They sure spurred me rAw..
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Sidelock
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It sure makes me appreciate Winchester Model 24. 
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Interesting hinge pin design. The gun reminds me of a Savage 240? O/U 410 my uncle has.
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Robert; You mentioned Torkalson, What do you have on him. The only thing I know about him is the short paragraph in Carders book. I do know he used one of the very few practical, single selective triggers of his time. Very few SSTs let you choose your barrel while a bird is flushing, as his does. Do you know who has the patent on this..MDC
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Sidelock
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MDC, I don't have any Torkelson (or Sullivan, Wadsworth, Forehand, etc) single trigger patents...that's not to say that Torkelson didn't have one, but I don't have anything on it... One of Torkelson's associates, F W Hood, had a single trigger patent that's not applicable, but worth a look. If I have interpreted correctly.... it's for hammerguns, where you cock the desired first hammer only. When you pull the trigger, the cocked hammer falls....if you continue to pull the second hammer is dual action... DRAWING http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US00...26RS=PN/0316622TEXT http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US00...26RS=PN/0316622Can you describe the the trigger any better? Where is the selector? From the description that you gave, I remenbered a single trigger patent were the spring loaded trigger travelled left/right in a V pattern...back and to the right for the right barrel, then release, and back and to the left for the left barrel...or left first...you can decide on the fly... But I'm not sure which patent that is....and with 197 single trigger patents in my US file, it would take some looking to find it.
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Sidelock
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If I have interpreted correctly.... it's for hammerguns, where you cock the desired first hammer only. When you pull the trigger, the cocked hammer falls....if you continue to pull the second hammer is dual action...
I can see why it was such a big hit. Do you know anyone that could convert my hammer guns to single trigger ?
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Hey Joe,
I thought the Klan worked on your guns...if not, take off your sheet and look it up in your local yellow pages..
I'll bet your Klan buddies don't even know about your.....you know...your "relationship" with Lowell
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Sidelock
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They do....that's why my hammer guns have two triggers.
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Sidelock
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Now, now. You guys have been good so far. This thread is interesting. Let's try to keep it technical and not personal. What do you say? Jake
R. Craig Clark
jakearoo(at)cox.net
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Sidelock
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Jake,
As you can see, I was exchanging information with another member, when joe arrived with nothing more than snide comments...nothing whatsoever to do with Norwich guns.
At first I thought some of these guys were just letting their alcoholism spill onto the internet, and let it go at that...
I really appreciate your offer of peace but I have to ask you something?
Joe shows up with post after post, with no other intention but to disrupt, and nobody says shit...but the first time I address Joes disruptions, ...
the problem started with joes THREE disruptions (posts 75937, 75951, 76149), right or wrong?
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Sidelock
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Jake,
As you can see, I was exchanging information with another member, when joe arrived with nothing more than snide comments...nothing whatsoever to do with Norwich guns.
At first I thought some of these guys were just letting their alcoholism spill onto the internet, and let it go at that...
The part I think Robert has trouble with he's exchanging information with everyone that reads this forum...maybe a telephone call a letter or a email might give you more privacy Robert. This is how it works...You post it who ever reads it comments should they choose. In the mean time Sir Robert... Please refrain from calling me an alcoholic and a Klans'man.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Norm, Sorry for the disruptions... Here's another possibility by a guy named Houldcroft of Warren Mass...There was a very important single trigger inventor who lived in nearby Connecticut by the name of Witherell but I think he worked for Remington... Well here is the Houldcroft patent http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=0079...View+first+page
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Sidelock
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Raimey,
I forgot to mention...Mary Johnson was also the the holder of Iver Johnson's automobile and pistol patents...
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My Torkalson SST has the selector inside the top, front of the trigger guard bow. It's a little toggle that can easily be selected while mounting the gun.. I could try to get a photo, but cant post it. Be glad to send it to someone to post..MDC
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Sidelock
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Send it to robertchambers@roadrunner.com and I will post it for everyone to see and follow along...if you don't mind...thanks...Bob Chambers
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Sidelock
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MDC,
Are you sure it's in the bow? It's in the forward part of the trigger like the Houldcroft patent above? It's not in the small piece of receiver between the trigger and bow? It's actually part of the bow?
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Sidelock
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OK...here's the photo's of M D Christians only known Torkelson single trigger...Thank You MDC..    It's too late for me to compare it to the patent record tonight...but tomorrow I'll get at it
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Sidelock
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Torkelsons are not common guns, but I have seen a dozen or two. Most of those had the Torkelson SST. The guns usually had Krupp barrels, so that was good, but even guns found in high condition have seemed to be a bit loose. Maybe a poor choice of metals elsewhere in the gun. Here's the only engraved one I have seen. 
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I've seen may 6 or 7 over the years...but I've read about a dozen for sale...none of which were single trigger guns...in fact all were field grades except one...and that wasn't a single trigger gun either... I guess all the Torkelson guns for sale, plus the ones I've seen, could be the same guns just circulating around. Has anyone else seen the two dozen single trigger Torkelson guns that Daryl has seen?  How about you MDC?...if anyone would notice another single trigger Torkelson...it would be you...have you seen two dozen single trigger Torkelson's floating around?
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Robert
Why do you always Question any body that have
different opinion than You self?
Maybe Daryl did see what he said he did.
Casey
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Sidelock
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I've saw three at Cracker Barrel.
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Did you take any pictures?
Casey
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Sidelock
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Robert, I've owned 4 of those single trigger guns that I can remember. I know you will feel badly that my experience differs from yours, but what Casey said is true. You must get over your fear of others that differ in experience from you. I have also seen them marked The Boston Gun and similar. There are probably three or four other names marked on them that I can't remember. They are advertised in the 1915 or so era.
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Sidelock
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Robert
Why do you always Question any body that have
different opinion than You self?
Maybe Daryl did see what he said he did.
Casey Casey, I'll bet you could twist a steel bridge girder into a cork screw. If you go back and read, you will see that in fact it was Daryl trying to negate what I thought was the only Torkelson single trigger... Do you understand? It's Daryl calling what I had said into question...and legitimately so... But in the future, I plan to seek out the threads that your participating in and twist your words...like you do to everyone else...and we'll all see how you like it when somebody reverses your own nonsense again...the hunter becomes the hunted eventually you'll learn to leave me alone
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Sidelock
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Torkelson Catalog showing the single trigger gun. 
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Sidelock
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Casey,
I'll bet you could twist a steel bridge girder into a cork screw.
My moneys on Robert...
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Sidelock
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Oh Yeah...here's a graded (engraved) Torkelson with a single trigger http://www.jamesdjulia.net/firearm/oct02/firearm_oct02_s1.asp Well that's news to me...I guess Daryl is correct...I was only able to locate three Torkelson shotguns and including Daryls gun and Christian's gun, that makes 3 single triggers of 5 available guns
Last edited by Robert Chambers; 01/10/08 06:49 PM.
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Sidelock
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I think the fine fellow in Nebraska, Reb, has a single trigger gun, too. There was a connection with Forehand and Torkelson and the stockless gun shown by Robert looks more like a Forehand related gun. New Worchester [sp?] was another name used on Torkelson made guns, but I think that was before the single trigger.
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Sidelock
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 Warren Mass? That's a new clue too...Warren is 25 miles west of Worcester... R T Torkelson was in Hatfield Mass in 1891 when he got this semi-hammer(?) patent http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=0045...View+first+pageNotice how the rib extinsion in the Forehand catalog (repro year unknown) has a third fastener like the the rib extension in the Warren Mass catalog The rib extension on the stockless Torkelson looks like the rib extension with a plain dolls head as in the patent drawing below (from 1898) http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US00...6RS=PN/0601,820as does this gun #638, which was made before 1898 because it's stamped with the 91 patent date AND is stamped "Pat Applied For"...By the way this damastwist pre-98 Worcester Connecticut made gun has a Belgian mark and is also marked "JF" barrels...JF presumably for Jean Falla
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Indeed, I do have a single trigger torkelson with the same trigger as shown on MD's and Daryl's guns.
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[quote=Robert Chambers
But in the future, I plan to seek out the threads that your participating in and twist your words...like you do to everyone else...and we'll all see how you like it when somebody reverses your own nonsense
again...the hunter becomes the hunted
I am shaking in my boots
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