doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus explained

William Wellington Greener The Gun and Its Development 8th edition 1907
p. 211 'Gun-making In Bygone Days'
"It is possible, but hardly probable, that in the lost treatise of Cataneo, "Arte de fare le Anne c i Fnd" the methods of manufacture current at Brescia in 1577 were explained in detail but we do know, from Cotty and others who mentioned the treatise when in the Paris Library, that it described some processes of manufacture. The works of Fucar (1535), N. Spadoni, V. Bonfadini, and other writers of the seventeenth century, supplemented by the information obtainable from an inspection of arms made in Spain..."

Remember that the Moors (a generic description of Muslim N. African Berbers and Arabs) controlled most of Spain (including the Basque gunmaking centers) from 711 until 1212, and were not defeated in Grenada until 1492. Extremely easy to see their influence on Iberian art and architecture (you paying attention jOe? ) Very likely that the primary 'road' for damascus to Western Europe was not from the east, but from N. Africa to Spain to France to Liege to Birmingham. Interesting that the Spainards named the kris swinging Muslims they found in Mindanao in 1512 Moros or 'Moors'. Wonder how those folks got Islam and damascus sword blades?!?

I'm still waiting for the Arizona State library to get me a 1958 article regarding Napoleon's role in all this

Excellent Dr. Drew.

I concur on the direction of the "Damascus Road" going thru North Africa. And as I have posted previously, Bell states that Colonel Grant composed sketches of primitive forges in operation in the interior of Africa. "In this drawing, two natives, each working a pair of single-acting bellows, are seen urging the combustion of a small heap of charcoal situate midway between the two. The ore, in small pieces, is added from time to time, with fresh supplies of fuel; and this is continued until a mass of iron of the required dimensions is obtained." He also notes that Colonel Grant ventures a total yield of "a dozen pounds per day."

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And somehow I can't see Jan III Sobieski at Vienna saying to himself in 1683 "Wow-look at all these neat gun barrels we got off the Turks. Let's go share this superior technology WITH THE FRENCH!"

From page 11 of "Sporting Guns and Gunpowder" as posted by Drew, there is a list of 39 types of tested tubes. I have descriptions from Bell's "Manufacture of Iron and Steel" and Wilkinson's "Engines of War:..." for Skelp, Siemens-Martin process, Darby's filtration process and those of Swedish steel. But I'm looking for a source for the defintion of: Boston Damascus and economic compound coiling process. Crolle and Pointille are listed and I'm sure they are on Drew's link. The economic compound coiling process may be a straightforward Webster's definition. Any source for pics of such tubes would be appreciated.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Boston is easy-this is a Baker but lots of makers used 2 Iron 'Boston.' Remington used it on the 1894 A grade. For my own pea brain catagorization, I call this 'Fine leaf large scroll symmetric annular 2 iron crolle.'
'Horse-shoe' would be 'Coarse leaf large scroll asymmetric crolle.'



"economic compound coiling process" is no doubt a trade name for 'machine made' damascus. Not a clue (yet) as to Pointille but the "English Damascus Rosetta Stone" is out there in some little Midlands industrial museum

Drew:

Thanks for the addition. Are we going to have an additional revdocdrew category in the descriptions and approximately how many Damascus patters(broad def.) would you venture to guess that there are? True on the 'machine made' Damascus which was developed to substitute rollers and machines for hand labour when workers went on strike for a rise in wages near the completion/fill order date of a big contract.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

One thing we do know for sure is that the English took Damascus barrel making to it's highest level.

Joe, how do "we" know that. A few examples of "why" might help the understanding.

jOe: Not sure any British maker could do this "Truk Extra" which is possibly Six Iron "Turkish" damascus



or this "Herring-bone"



or this "Rose Pattern Bernard II"

All this talk about definitions has gotten ahead of me, but to now run off the 1 or 2 guys other than Pete, Raimey, and Daryl still following this thread, here's where I am trying to interpret the various damascus patterns. Note that Twist and Laminated Steel ain't even on here.

Damascus pattern classification outline:

Crolle patterns
From ‘crullen’ or ‘krolle’ meaning to form into coils/to twist

Fine leaf, Large scroll, Symmetric, Annular Crolle
Many Two Iron patterns especially Boston and Remington Boston R S.J.

Fine leaf, Large scroll, Asymmetric, Annular Crolle
Remington Oxford 2 S.J.

Fine leaf, Small scroll, Symmetric, Annular Crolle
Turkish or Damas Crolle Turc
Remington Oxford 4 S.J.
Most ‘Fine’ and ‘Extra-fine’ Three and Four Iron patterns

Coarse leaf, Large scroll, Asymmetric, Non-annular Crolle
Remington Boston N
Horse-shoe (Two and Three Iron)

Non-Crolle patterns
Discontinuous (variegated), Lamellar, Annular
Bernard, esp. Rose pattern II
Éclair
Star or Etoile
Remington Washington N 3 B.P./American Flag (Bunting)/Stars & Stripes

Discontinuous (variegated), Lamellar, Non-annular
Chain
Herring-bone and Remington Legia P.

Discontinuous (variegated), Non-lamellar
Leclerc
Remington Chine P
Remington Pieper P

Unidentified named patterns
Pointille'
Robinson
Moire
Thonon
Turc mine' blanc
Pearl
Chine'
Japanese
Ribbon
Bresciano
London
English Variegated
English Chequered