doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Sterlingworth recase

Have 1934 Savage Fox Sterlingworth.Great bores and wood.12 gauge 28 Inch.Some case on watertable and receiver end of forend iron.Receiver is bright,no rust and no case.Is it worth recasing? Thanks

I would keep it as a shooter and not recase. Point of recase is to recolor. But unless you are going to put the gun back into factory fresh finish condition I think that recase/recolor is over kill. A refinished field gun will not turn many heads and the money invested will be more than you can get out of it when you sell it later. If it is a family heirloom it is another thing and we all have put money into a gun like that far beyond its worth to others.

Think about it this way. If you bought a 1975 Ford Pinto to get to work would you spend thousands to get it repainted? Or would you just use it and hope none of your old girl friends sees you driving it.

I just made the same decision. 'Worth' wasn't in the equation, since I'm not preparing the gun to sell and I don't mind spending money on something I intend to use and enjoy.

My gun has decent but finish worn barrels and it needs the stock refinished. Gun is tight, and is a good shooter. My decision was to overhaul the barrel set, and refinish the wood myself. The frame will be left as is.

Color restoration carries some risk. I've seen pictures of these guns cracked through the sear axle. This one has been happily shooting for years before I bought it, and I'm not going to trouble it.

Shothun jones --- the cracked frame usually occurs when frame isn't annealed before recoloring. FWIW, Ken

We've seen more than one Fox here that has had a bit of trouble with cracking of the frame. I'd be tempted to just let it be, in hopes of avoiding that.
I've recased a gun, and while it was spectacular, it didn't shoot any better afterwards. Consider spending the money for some ammunition, some practice, a shooting lesson, or stock adjustments, to make it fit better.

Might help more in the long run.
Best,
Ted

Only you can decide.

Disassemble it and polish it yourself and you can get it recased by Classic Guns or Turnbull Restoration for <$250. Or give it as is to Giacomo Sporting and they'll disassemble, polish and reassemble for $355.

I doubt any of these establishments have caused a Fox frame to crack.

Classic charges $175. for a polished and dis-assembled frame to be color cased. Takes about a week to a week and a half to get it done. I have never had a frame cracked by Classic. ken

Believe me Turnbull will not do it for less than $250.

I'm having one done now and the total for tear down, re-case and reassembly is $250.00.

Ted,

You are correct, we have seen them. Here is one. Note, it has no case color left.


Here is another one. Again, no case coler left.


When ever it was possible, I contacted the owner / seller and inquired as to the cause. In each case the response included mention of "duck loads".

I have never seen a Fox that was recase hardened crack. Which does not mean it can't happen. I purchased an early 12ga Philadelphia Arms Fox. It was in rough shape when I purchased it. I had a gunsmith, that I trust, give it a good going over. He completely stripped the receiver. He found an internal hairline crack, which I had him weld. This same gun also had the barrels painted black. So I am guessing "duck loads". The Krupp barrels held.

I know you can shoot duck with a Fox. So I am not sure what was being force fed to these guns. I look at those pictures and it simply reconfirms for me that in older sxs guns, you have to adjust the ammunition for the pressures they were built to handle.

Classic Guns is not far from me. I have spent several Saturday's there chatting with John and his crew. The danger during any rehardening is warpage. No one can guarantee that some warping will not occur. However, by using some one who has a known reputation, you certainly minimize the risk. They should be asking a lot of questions about your gun and it's history.

If some one has a picture of a gun that been recase color hardened and then cracked when using the proper loads, please post a picture.

Here is picture of John with a receiever that he had just finished. The other is John with Lucky.


Pete

PeteM ---- thanks for the picture of John and Lucky as well as picture of newly cased action. I just realized that the picture of the guy holding the LC action under the color cased one is me ---- how did that happen ? Did you know John has moved operations to Crete ? Ken

Thanks Ken! Here is the new contact infro:

Classic Guns Inc.
John Gillette
Crete, Il.
708-367-1620
service@classicgunsinc.com
http://www.classicgunsinc.com/

Ahh Ken,

You spoiled it. I was going to hold a contest to see who could name that engraver.


Kick around the net long enough and you find all sorts of interesting pictures.
Actually, John had asked for a picture of his favorite engraver. I stopped by the shop drop it off.

Yep, he getting closer to me. Actually it only cuts a few minutes off the drive time.

Pete

Two bucks says that he is barefoot at the time the picture was taken. Well known fact that engravers need toe freedom to do their best work. Good blood flow to the piggies also means good blood flow to the brain.

Ahhhh Mr. Jon, you got me. Fact is , I'm barefooted now as I have been engraving all day. Kinda hard to break the habit --- hard core country I guess. I tried to forward you pictures of that Baker I did for myself but guess I had the wrong address. Email me and I'll forward the pictures to you.

Ken
kenhurst@suddenlink.net

Never seen one cracked thru the sear axle holes. The one above is cracked thru the hammer axle bearing.

jack

It would appear on those guns the rotary bolt was (As Usual) only "Fit Up" to do half it's job. With the bolt properly fit up to hold the standing Breech "Up to the Bbls" a Sterly frame shoukld take about anything one could throw at it. The supposed "Superiority" of the Rotary Bolt is only realized "IF" it fits.

Turnbull recased a Charlin sliding breech action gun for me, better than a decade ago, I'm guessing. That gun appears in a photo in Double Gun Journal in the Darne piece I wrote. If there is an action that won't take ANY warpage, it is a Charlin, and Mr. Turnbull promised and delivered.

Had I seen various cracked Parkers, LC Smiths, Savage 5100, Iver Johnson Hercules, Ithacas, of any sort or, come to think of it, Tobins, a design, by the way, that I believe really should crack on occasion, since not all that much supports the standing breech under those lockplates, I would have posted that.

But, all I've seen are broken Foxs. Not just here, either. Now, I would no more feed a roman candle duck load to a Fox then I would my Tobin, but, those broken Fox pictures are a little too easy to find on the net. Miller's point is a good one, but, little old me always assumed the weak link might/should be the barrels.

A frame, springing a leak like that, right under 'me little cheapskate nose, would give me the willies. Hell, the picture does.

I'll leave the "hows and whys" to others, and feed my 100 year or so old Tobin, low pressure stuff, only on occasion. The rest of the time, it'll be in the safe.

The guy who color case hardens Sterrit brand tools once told me, "Color case hardening isn't an exact science, and, sometimes, you get what you get".

Indeed.
Best,
Ted

The number of Sterlingworths made, and the what you've seen on the net Ted, makes 'em a pretty good bet.
There have been pictures of ruptured LC barrels and the cracked frame 20g Flues also.
The Sterlingworth was the cream of the crop of the field grades, and was hunted the hard way no doubt.

Do tell Ted...you've one that stays in the safe...I won't tell!

2 3/4" chamber Fox HE after abundant 3" duck loads courtesy of CC (the pic, not the duck loads )

Miller, are you referring to the condition that exists in many Foxes where the flat of the barrel and the water table are not closely mated? I thought the opening in that area was a design feature until I saw some Fox guns that do not have it. What is the story about that? The HE picture is scary since my own 2 3/4" chambered HE has probably been fired with quite a quantity of 3" shells over the years.

I agree with Ted. Cracked Foxes are a little too easy to find on the internet, and Fluesies seem to dominate the Ithacas. For my part, I just cannot see laying out a couple of grand to have a 100 year old work horse done up in Botex and lipstick. For that kind of money I'd vastly prefer a good Spanish sidelock or a BSS, both of which can handle modern loads. Just my 2C worth. Chopperlump

When selling or trading those good Spanish sidelocks, you do get about 2cents on the dollar.

There are no guarantees that come with older guns, and there's no telling what those farmers shot in 'em.
I've shot my Sterlingworth enuff with light loads, and if I never shoot it again...thats okay with me.

I don't have a Steringworth, Thorny. I missed the Fox boat by being involved with slidey breech guns.
I think a Fox is pretty, but, never ponied up for one. Now, like I said, if there was ever a gun that should crack, in my opinion, it would be one of Frank Major Tobins-the central action body is cut to hell making room for the lockwork, under the lockplates, and that big assed lump, between the tubes. They are often, and I mean real often, found in an off face condition, with little or no wear on the hinge pin and lump. The action bar, you see, having been bent, prolly after being stuffed with near anti aircraft duck loads.
However, since in the case of either a Fox, or a Tobin, the real culprit is most likely abuse, the real question must be why do the catastrophic abuse photos so often depict a Fox?
Hey, I missed the boat on Spanish sidelocks as well. To be honest, my few experiences with true sidelocks were always waiting for repairs, or waiting for the next incident of needing repair. Empire guns were boxlocks for a reason, 'Matey. My Tobin is simply a relic, and not a good example of either boxlock, or sidelock design.
And, nobody on my street has one.

Best,
Ted

8-Bore;
No. I too believe that to be a design parameter. What I am referring to is the fit of the bolt itself. The advertized design of the rotary bolt has always given it a two-fold purpose, with claims of great superiority over other designs. The inner dia of the bolt fitting the lower surface of the hole in rib serves as a "Bbl Latch" to hold bbls closed against opening rotation. The rear surface of the "Finger" if bearing against the rear upright portion of the hole locks the breech up against the bbls to relieve the stress from the juncture of bar to standing brech, which is where frame cracking normally occurs. It seems however that most rotary bolted guns whether Smith, Fox or Ithaca do not have this bearing fitted. Perhaps that HE did not either, but was "Shot loose" before contact was made which then threw a disproportinate portion of the load onto the rib extension. Obviously it was not up to the back thrust of those heavy 3" loads.
I do believe though that W W Greener was right when he stated a "Top Cross Bolt" should use a Round bolt rather than a square one.

Since starting this post,i have received a wealth of information from all you fine folks.Have decided to leave it as is.Fits me well.Very tight,great wood and blue.Very successful on doves and quail.Thanks so much for the input.Retiredreb

Good choice. Jake

There are thousand upon thousands of hardware store guns and lesser field grades that never made it to the new millennium. The newly prized Sterlingworths did, and were subjected to the same torture and abuse the clodhoppers could heap upon them as the store boughts.
Its a numbers game - prolly as many Boss&Co guns have failed as Sterlingworths over these many years.
Some here are too Sherlockian in their thought!

Lowell you better sell that Sterlingworth to Cracker Barrel....and stop dreaming of "clodhoppers" dancing through tater patches with their Sterlingworths.

Comparing a Sterlingworth to a Boss ....yOu been in that Maazou'ra moonshine again ?

j0e, did you say you were a brain surgeon, or had brain surgery?
...and if you can't remember!
I'm not comparing a Boss to a Sterlingworth - what I'm saying, there has been most likely failures with 'em too.
Kinda like a sleeved gun - maybe a barrel cut loose, or something...but we know it failed somewhere, hence the sleeve job.

A sleeved gun and an action failure....I fail to see the similarity....

Do you blame it on gun failure if a guy chops off the barrels on SxS with a hacksaw ?

My "guess" is the Sterlingworths are cracking because of a design failure or a case hardening failure.

Maybe Pete has the answer in his post..."never saw a recased Sterlingworth crack"

Lowell, my good Spanish double was bought for 800 bucks, a Victor Sarasqueta SLE 20 bore imported by Stoeger in the 50's.
It sold then for $144, so I guess it has appreciated quite a little over the original purchase price. I have turned down $1000 for it and I've only had it for 2 years.By all standards, it is a finely built gun. And JOe, for once I quite agree with your summation of Sterlingworth failures. Either a case hardening flaw or more likely a design flaw. I'll take a pass on the Foxes, thanks. I just see too many cracked frames to spend a lot of money on a field grade gun. Chopperlump