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Joined: Jan 2002
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JohnM Offline OP
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Underlever opener, with a flat leverpiece under that, which swivels sideways to release bbls for removal.

Backaction hammer, straight-front scrolled triggerguard, with extensive horn insert to form Semi-pg. Moderate panels of fine scroll engraving with a neat little archaic-looking roe deer buck on the bottom of the TG, in silver. Simple blade rear and small bead front sight. Matted solid rib. Very typical looking gun of the genre, as to overall layout.

Proofs: Rifle -- crown over U, crown over G, 'sunburst' around U, * over C, 118/35. Shotgun -- * over S, circle 16, crown over U, crown over S -- serial appears to be 0865 stamped on underrib ahead of flats. I don't think there is a nitro proof in that lot, but I'll ask anyway. ;~`)

Sixteen bore with short chamber. Rifle is rimmed, tapered case, again typical German midbore BP[?. Rifle caliber by dimensions --Approximate. Case rim: 12.5MM. Base diameter ahead of rim: 11MM. Length: 60MM + or - a MM. Bore at muzzle: 9MM.

Bore conditions: 16 is mildly rough with some darkish patches, but prolly shootable with low pressure loads. Rifle bore is strong and should polish out nicely.

Overall condition is grey metal, and worn wood. Locks and mechanics of lockup are Ok, and ejector cam needs new posistioning washers, but is there. The stock head needs TLC that I can provide, but is unshootable as it is, at least safely.

The situation is that client is juggling the estimated cost of me doing said work against potential resale. I EXPLAINED THAT HE IS JUST ABOUT GOING BREAK EVEN AT BEST. The cost of wood and metal repair and mild refinishing is easily estimated at 300 to 400 BEFORE disassembly. What else is found, is going to be added on. It's the will of Allah, when the final cost of resurrection is the question. Let's say 500.00 to give it a fair shot.

OK. He has 200 in it, or so he claims. Prolly less: I known him well. ;~`) Add 400 to 500 and there sits a 600 to 700 dollar oredinary zwielling, in a handloading proposition caliber, with a cute worn roebuck on the action bottom. The wood will be and look sound and wellcared for. The metal will have a nice old faded blue and brown effect. It will shoot. I have a hard time forcasting the restored gun re-selling at any sort of profit for the owner, or even at the cost of what he will have in it. I won't tell him that it will, if it won't -- hence this little excursion among the here-gathered.

I'd sure enjoy bringing the gun back, just because of the kind of general restoration stuff I like to do -- and get paid to do. But I can't do it at a loss and I don't want to 'fluff' the owner's expectations about it's restored market value. Nothing earthshakingly important here, but it's nice to know where a person can ask such questions and reecieve weighed opinions worth reading.

This isn't as good as pics, but if anyone wishes to hazard ID, age, etc the effort is appreciated.


Last edited by JohnM; 12/20/07 09:47 PM.

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JohnM:

I would venture to guess that it is a 360 Express 2 1/4" (9.3X57 or 9x57-NOT Mauser) with 118/35 gauge - 0.341". The brass with parent headstamp(30-40 Krag) can be purchased at Dave's Buffalo Arms(www.buffaloarms.com - 360NE214) and are easy to reload. I have seen them cut down from 9.3X72R but I wouldn't ruin RWS cases. If the length of pull is adequate, I'd buy it, use it and think about restoring the gun after that. Shotshells can be purchased from RST or Polywad. If the lands and groves permit, purchase some Hornady 200gr #3510 bullets(or something close to 193gr) and away you go.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
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Last edited by ellenbr; 12/20/07 10:42 PM.
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I'll vote with Raimey on the rifle caliber. The chamber may or may not have "modern" .360 2-1/4" (9,3x57R) dimensions so a chamber cast is a must. Bore and groove dimensions will just be what they will be.

Crown-over-G (gezeugen) rifled bore, eagle with crown-over-U final inspection, crown-over-S smoothbore, no nitro marks. Crown-over-C ??? I'd love to see a picture of the flats. The 118/35 gauge mark is pretty much indicative of 1892-1912 manufacture which will hardly surprise you.

I'm guessing that this is a side-by-side "Cape" gun rather than and over-under "Combo" gun, yes?

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Steven:

I have a combo that is very similar but in rough shape. Someone has used it as a donor and took the backaction springs. Any idea where to get a set?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
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Last edited by ellenbr; 12/20/07 11:09 PM.
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JohnM Offline OP
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Raimy and Steve,

Thanks for the ID help. It is of a light Cape gun configuration, and in its slender underlever style, sorta svelte. Some small elegance to the triggerguard and horn grip, in that Germanic formal style. The fitting of the under-rib to the two different sized bbls is a study in craftsmanship.

Your idea of me offering to buy it from the customer is quite tempting, tho I am presently in the throes of being a flint longrifle builder, of late. DAMN those rocklocks, for they sure are addictive fun. There's four, hanging around the shop walls now, in various states of unfinish. Orphans, some of them, adopted from owners who...well, can no longer complete their dream.

At any rate, even if the Cape gun is non-Smokeless Proof, would it be a candidate to use smokeless-for-black ALA Seyfried's formula? {which I will have to go look up}. Would you hazard an informed guess if the original round was early smokeless with a metal jacket, or was it one of those paper-patched bullet, transistional bulk powder loads?

Best I can figure, will convey this off to my client, and tell him that I really don't know, beyond a very generalized spread, what such a gun is worth -- with a thorough functioning mechanical restoration and light cosmetic workover. Because I don't. And sight unseen for anybody else, it's just a guess, at best.

The gun is not fine enuff to appeal to a collector and too expensive, or of little interst after being restored, for most gunshow walkabout bargain hunter folks. A German Capegun guy should have a half-dozen better specimens just leaning in the corner!!! ;~`)At least, that there is 'bout how I see it.

Even on a BBS like this, it doesn't seem to me that it would be hot item. Old. Interesting. But general purpose, gleamie-eyed lust inducing? Nuh-unh.;~`)It's the old "Have it done for the sake of what you will enjoy using, not the shimmering mirage of possible profit." That applies to most of the private party furniture that goes thru my door, anyway.

There is occasionally considerable value added, at commensurate cost. Tho, that circumstance is rarer than it was even a decade ago. But a lot of antiques presently just achieve potential value, which about equals the cost of purchase and work done. The margins for antique furniture dealers to afford extensive repairs are closer than I've ever seen them, right now.

My old digital camera doesn't "do" very good closeups, for the flats. However, will give it a try in the New Year, for the sake of adding to the knowledge pool. Thanks again, for providing reasonable assumption that the rifle cartridge can be worked out without recourse to brass bar stock and a lathe. That prolly nudges it towards functional rescue, more than wall hanger.

Have a foine and safe holidays, and don't forget to breath some powder smoke.


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JohnM:

I suggested you purchase it to save it from some who might have sanded it down, performed a "spray-on" bluing job and shot magnum/heavy loads shotshells thru it. And to rescue the unsuspecting new owner who would be drawn into the depths of the deep of vintage continental sporting arms by just such a demon. The new owner couldn't purchase off the shelf brass and dies and has regular phone conversations with suppliers like Buffalo Arms and Old Western Scrounger. He would also have to have additional shelves for new gun library acquisitions and have to be vague and abstract to his significate other regarding travels to vintage events where like minds gather and seek rehab. A longarm similar to the one you mention was the beginning of my quest for down a similar restoration path which would have invested several K $ in a $500 sporting piece. So, with all that said, I hope you get to do the restoration and many more. But, if you don't and wish not to house such a demon, let me know as I might have a home for him.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
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JohnM Offline OP
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Raimey,

Been reading the new Drillings book, on loan from friend. Inspirational. That new French SxS drilling is neat-o, and the rifled-rib rimfires seem quite useful for Canada geese, but if only the game warden doesnt notice them here!!! And man o man, are they waaaayahead of us on contemporary sub-caliber inserts.
Great to see such craftsmanship, and gain an understanding of the assorted actions, makers, and technical pluses and minuses.

Makes a hammer zweiling look rather simple. One use for which drillings would be practically useful here, is furred varmint calling, as in coyotes. I'm not sure that Ferlacher's would quite know what to make of their 30,000.00 dollar creation swathed in winter-night white camo, but what the heck. If it's made to use, why not? Now THERE would be a custom order, replete with American corn stubble and a John Deere tractor in the background.

It'll be a while before the gun in my shop gets a decision, but should it prove to be too hot to hold, so to speak, you may get notification to prepare asbestos mittens. ;~`)


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JohnM:

Well, I just checked the tracking feature for my such book & it may be after Christmas before it arrives. Asbestos mittens are my cup of tea, so to speak, as I am trained in asbestos safety thanks to BP. On another note, I do require a set of backaction springs for a combo just like you have described. Could you fill an order, make a set or give some advice? I could easily send you the locks as I have to get some of those longarms leaning in the corner out of the corner & into use.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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The .360 2-1/4" can be great fun with either black or light smokeless loads. The original British loadings were of the 'miniature express' type with pretty light plain lead bullets - 150 to 190 grs typically - giving 1700 fps or so. If the bore and groove of this one run on the small side as they often do there are lots of .358" cast and swaged bullets to choose from (and you can load it with .38 Special or .35 Rem dies!). If it's larger you can paper patch any of those up to the right diameter. There are even a couple of sources for .364-.366" cast out there as necessary. I'd start with either Buffalo Arms formed brass or cut down some of the currently available Norma 9,3x72R stuff, though you will need real dies to do the latter. There was an article is DGJ a couple of years back by Ross Seyfried about using the .360 2-1/4" that might be a good hook...

Raimey, you should be able to get springs made by a good double gun smith. I had a set made up by Abe Chaber at Custom Craft (contact info -> here <- ) a while ago that have worked well.

John, those rocklocks are addictive! We appear to be on the same slippery slope. Simplicity is good.

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JohnM Offline OP
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Well, guys. I'm good for dies and molds, looks like. Will dig out Seyfried's article. As to making springs, my attrmpts have been 'non-commercial', to say the least. Having a real metal smith do the job is the best insurance of money well spent.

As to getting into the gunpile and 'fixin', there is a darn good riflesmith down in Friendship, Indiana whose Dad was a prominent longrifle guy. They can do about anything, and reasonably. Mebbe one of the regulars here will pop his name, as I know he re-did a 28ga Uggie40 for someone years ago, including rehardening of springs and sears, tuning, and recutting better engraving. It was a real success.

Now...all we need to do is set up a flint-spaller in the US, who for a cheaper domestic price, can turn out rocks that last twenty shots and never need the edge tuned -- to get that instantaneous click-bang. Slippery slope indeed!!

Happy powder smoke, of whatever flavor, and signing off for a while.


Relax; we're all experts here.
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