May
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
Who's Online Now
4 members (Sun Dog, buckstix, DaveB, 1 invisible), 297 guests, and 4 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,537
Posts546,020
Members14,420
Most Online1,344
Apr 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
#72630 12/18/07 07:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983
Hi,
Just in case anyone is interested in the time involved, I phoned in a request for a C & R license application package on October 18th. The package came on October 22nd. I sent it in that same day. The license and package of rule books came today, December 18th. Two months total, from phone call to license in hand. Probably not too bad for a government operation. I wasn't in a great hurry anyway.
Merry Christmas to all,


> Jim Legg <

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 173
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 173
Jim,

You are the second person, known to me, within the last 2 months, that has reported similar service lever. I hope that this is indicative of a continuing trend. My renewal times have been improving.

When Cliton was POTUS, my renewal took months!

Phil

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,858
Likes: 200
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,858
Likes: 200
Jim:

So, do tell: what are the specifics? i.e. do they search your shop every month, do you have to have a store front, can you have one with just a residental address, cost per year?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 173
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 173
Jim,

C&R is a different catagory. There is no searching or probing. Licensees are required to keep records and abide by the rules. Licenses are not alowed to engage in the business of tradign firearms. They are allowed to collect and sell collections.

Phil

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,858
Likes: 200
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,858
Likes: 200
Phil:

So, why would you want to keep a record of your collection for the government, when you can do it at will under the Bill of Rights? One can buy and sell as long as they are upgrading their collection.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880
Likes: 16
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880
Likes: 16
Raimey,
If you aren't aware, the C&R allows certain guns that qualify to be taken possession of directly and immediately by a C&R holder without the normal 4473 form submittal and associated waiting period. If you are conducting activities under the approval of your C&R you are required to keep a "bound book" as does any FFL holder to record transfers in and out. That's pretty much all there is. Never heard of anyone having any problem with ATF regarding a C&R.

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,852
Likes: 151
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,852
Likes: 151
The C&R FFL allows the licensee to send to and receive directly from other FFL holders those firearms that are classified as C&R. No having to have the gun shipped to another 01FFL for transfer to you. It avoids transfer costs and delays. Plus many businesses in the trade offer discounts to C&R holders as well as 01FFL holders. The records are open to inspection to LE at any time. The 4473's and bound book records that any gunshop makes out and keeps when you pay them to transfer a gun to you are also open to the same inspection. A private party transfer should include ID and a receipt to protect you in the event that the firearm does show itself to be stolen. It's not a good position to be in with a stolen firearm and your answer of where you got is " a guy at a show". Even a personal record of your guns for insurance purposes is a still a written record. No, you don't need one, it's just a convenience to have one. My 01 hasn't drawn any black helos yet:>)

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
One other note to the C&R is that when you decide to stop and not renew it unlike the 01FFl,the O3 FFL (C&R) holder is not required to turn that book in.So if you follow the law and do not get an inspection your records may never be seen by anyone in the goverment.If you go through a 01 FFL for transfers and fill out a 4473 then do the insta NICS check there is a record.
Of course if we have a "madam president" this all could and most probably would change and we all be looking at golf as a hobby instead of gun collecting.
Thats goood news Jim,like to hear when it goes fast.Took them 90 days to renew mine,they where very nice and gave me an extension but I was getting concerned.


Last edited by Dave K; 12/18/07 08:28 PM.

Hillary For Prison 2018
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,858
Likes: 200
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,858
Likes: 200
Guys:

Thanks ya'll for taking the time to info me. I just thought that when the gunshop/FFL holder, or holders, went out of business and his storage space where all mine, as well as others, experienced a mysterious fire or flood, that all would be well and none would be the wiser. I have heard a couple stories about the "gunshow deals" that turned out to be stolen. It helps to have a good working relationship with the County Sheriff. By the way, what is the cost per year for the C&R?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Last edited by ellenbr; 12/18/07 08:54 PM.
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 517
GJZ Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 517
$30 for three years.

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880
Likes: 16
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880
Likes: 16
$30 for 3 yrs

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
Raimey,
quite sure many of us here who have them will help you if you decide to go the C&R route but if you want to research it more I have also found this site helpful.
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/forum/view/id/113
Best
Dave K


Hillary For Prison 2018
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 230
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 230
I had a visit from ATF the year following receipt of my C&R license. This was also the year following 9/11.

The young lady ATF Agent was very polite and professional. She called for an appointment that was convenient...was prompt in her arrival...asked to see bound book and guns listed in bound book...made a cursory examination to see if guns listed in bound book matched the guns I showed her...asked how guns were stored.

She made no attempt to record the guns listed in book or that I showed her. The whole thing took about 15 minutes and they haven't been back since.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,093
Likes: 36
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,093
Likes: 36
I'm on my 4th renewal, never had a problem. They also visited me once, also right after 9/11. My experience was similar to Griz', they called for an appointment that was at my convenience, showed up on time, just wanted to go over the rules and asked if I had any questions. Didn't ask to see any guns, I asked them to make sure I was keeping the proper records. Good experience. I've called my agent a few times with questions and gotten the answers promptly.


My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income.
- Errol Flynn
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 1
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 1
Just sent in my renewal for three more years. It was nice that you can have a mailing address separate from the premises where your collection is kept. If you are interested in C&R licenses you might look at the website http://www.cruffler.com It may not be all that up to date but it is a good overview.

Bob

Last edited by Bob Blair; 12/18/07 10:28 PM.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,936
Likes: 16
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,936
Likes: 16
I just got my renewal form and one of the questions ask is how many of the guns you bought using the license have you sold. It plainly states that this license does not give you to the right to conduct a business of selling firearms! Only buying the ones that qualify! You do not have to have the license to sell your guns to a quailfied buyer or FFL holder. Bobby

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,093
Likes: 36
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,093
Likes: 36
That's a new question, wasn't on my renewal last year.


My problem lies in reconciling my gross habits with my net income.
- Errol Flynn
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983
A C & R License allows you to receive C & R firearms interstate directly to your home, without the service of an FFL in your state. The guns do not have to come FROM an FFL, whether you have a C & R license or not. The idea that a gun must be shipped BY or FROM an FFL is pure CRAP, concocted by some FFL holders who haven't a clue what the rules are. An FFL or a C & R is
required on the (interstate)RECEIVING END ONLY. A C & R holder does not have to play the Brady games, or fill out a 4473(for C & R guns). C & R guns are mainly guns made more than 50 years ago. Many others are also on the C & R list because of uniqueness or other collectibility status. It does not allow you to be "in the gun dealer business". You can not receive interstate shipments for other people. If you are receiving non-C & R guns interstate, you still need to have an FFL receiver, just like everyone else. As is often stated, you can go to the ATF site and get the correct answers for yourself, instead of some of the incorrect stuff that pops up in every thread like this.


> Jim Legg <

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880
Likes: 16
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880
Likes: 16
Jim,
Your applic was processed pretty quickly. When I got mine 3 yrs ago, I was flabbergasted that it only took about 3 weeks if I recall.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
Jim,
what did you end up doing with that 7a and 7b Acquisitions and dispositions number question on the renewal? They evidently left out the 03FFL not required to fill that out letter this time.
Dave


Hillary For Prison 2018
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,144
Likes: 202
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,144
Likes: 202
OK, do C&R holders have to answer that question or not. Are they even asked the question? What is the requirement for selling guns you bought on your C&R? Is there some kind of limit? Thanks for reply.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
Hi Bill,
as far as I understood that A&D question (7a and 7b)was that is was always on the form,which is the same for 01 and 03 FFL's,and the first time I renewed 3 years ago I had a letter stating that C&R 03 did not have to answer it (like the business hours just put N/A).Evidently they did not put that letter in this time so it was assumed that this needed to be answered.Of course call to them could yield answers of both yes you did and no you didn't have to answer it.
I answered it as it didn't really bother me to tell them something they could see if they wanted anyway.However I was not pleased that the CLEO was now privy to that info as I do not have to show them if I don't want to.
Just the way I did it not saying that the only way.
Hope that Helps,
best,
Dave K

Last edited by Dave K; 12/19/07 11:59 AM.

Hillary For Prison 2018
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,144
Likes: 202
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,144
Likes: 202
"Could see it if they wanted", "Don't have to show them if I don't want to.". Are both of these quotes referring to the information about how many gun we have sold? They seem to be conflicting statements. CLEO??

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 1
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,435
Likes: 1
CLEO=Chief Law Enforcement Officer, ie the Chief of Police of the city or the Sheriff of the county where the C&R premises is located. A copy of the application or renewal must be sent to the CLEO. Of course, it has the answer to that question so he will have that info. Mine went to the sheriff of the county who approved my original application 3 years ago.

Last edited by Bob Blair; 12/19/07 01:33 PM.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
The differnce is the BATF could do an inspection and look in the bound book at any time.That has always been the case with any FFL but the CLOE does not have that authority.I,or any FFL holder,when applying for my license agreed the let the BATF see the book and inspect me.Without a legal warrant the PD can not.
Or in plain english,the Chief of Police or anyone else who has acesss to the file with those copies of the FFL applications has no business knowing how many guns I bought or sold,by applying for the license I have agreed to let the BATF know if they want but not the PD.


Last edited by Dave K; 12/19/07 03:30 PM.

Hillary For Prison 2018
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,144
Likes: 202
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,144
Likes: 202
I would assume that the CLEO can be sent a copy without the answer to that question. The way I understand the application process, the copy that goes to CLEO does not go forward and the actual application copies do not go to CLEO.

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,438
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,438
Does anyone here happen to have a reproducable copy of the form tht's required to be kept by anyone with a C&R license?
Jim


The 2nd Amendment IS an unalienable right.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,015
Jim,
you mean the bound book?
http://www.type03.net/BoundBooks/ROsterman-Boundbook.xls

Bill,
I am not sure if an incomplete copy is acceptable and you do sign that you sent it to the CLEO with the date on the application.

Dave

Last edited by Dave K; 12/19/07 06:35 PM.

Hillary For Prison 2018
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880
Likes: 16
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880
Likes: 16
Jim,
The ATF website has the requirements here http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/...7cfr478.125.htm

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart H--Records

Sec. 478.125 Record of receipt and disposition.

(a) Armor piercing ammunition sales by licensed collectors to
nonlicensees. The sale or other disposition of armor piercing ammunition
by licensed collectors shall be recorded in a bound record at the time a
transaction is made. The bound record shall be maintained in
chronological order by date of sale or disposition of the armor piercing
ammunition, and shall be retained on the licensed premises of the
licensee for a period not less than two years following the date of the
recorded sale or disposition of the armor piercing ammunition. The bound
record entry shall show:
(1) The date of the transaction;
(2) The name of the manufacturer;
(3) The caliber or gauge;
(4) The quantity of projectiles;
(5) The name, address, and date of birth of the nonlicensee; and
(6) The method used to establish the identity of the armor piercing
ammunition purchaser.
The format required for the bound record is as follows:

(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each
licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and
disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this
paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed
below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall,
except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not
later than the close of the next business day following the date of such
purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of
receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the
person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if
any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the
firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or
relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days
following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to
a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained,
until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial
documents maintained by the licensee, and be readily available for
inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other
disposition of each firearm curio or relic, the name and address of the
person to whom the firearm curio or relic is transferred, or the name
and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a
licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a
licensee. In addition, the licensee shall cause the transferee, if other
than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in
commercial transactions (e.g., a driver's license), and shall note on
the record the method used. In addition, the licensee shall--
(1) Cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified
in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a
driver's license), and note on the record the method used, and
(2) In the case of a transferee who is an alien legally in the
United States and who is other than a licensee--
(i) Verify the identity of the transferee by examining an
identification document (as defined in Sec. 478.11), and
(ii) Cause the transferee to present documentation establishing that
the transferee is a resident of the State (as defined in Sec. 478.11) in
which the licensee's business premises is located if the firearm curio
or relic is other than a shotgun or rifle, and note on the record the
documentation used or is a resident of any State and has resided in such
State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the transfer of the
firearm if the firearm curio or relic is a shotgun or rifle and shall
note on the record the documentation used. Examples of acceptable
documentation include utility bills or a lease agreement which show that
the transferee has resided in the State continuously for at least 90
days prior to the transfer of the firearm curio or relic.
(3) The format required for the record of receipt and disposition of
firearms by collectors is as follows:

[[Page 158]]



Firearms Collectors Acquisition and Disposition Record
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Description of firearm Receipt Disposition
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name and Name and For transfers
address address Driver's to aliens,
Serial Caliber or name or name Date of license No. or documentation
Manufacturer and/or importer Model No. Type or Date and Date and birth if other used to
gauge license license nonlicensee identification establish
No. No. if nonlicensee residency
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sorry about the format crunch in the example above, but the link to the web available template above seems to comply.






Last edited by Chuck H; 12/19/07 06:49 PM.
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983
I think I kept a copy of the application form but don't know where it is. Therefore, I have no idea what 7A or 7B questions are. If you would post the questions, I'd probably remember what I answered.


> Jim Legg <

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,741
Likes: 494
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,741
Likes: 494
C & R is a nice thing to have. Do not think that you are going to sell guns as a business under one. That will get you all types of attention from BATF. It is intended to make collecting much easier for us as collectors.

Mine has been a great help for the last five or so years that I have had it. What makes me mad are sellers who refuse to accept it and will not even read the regulations. I know some state laws conflict with the use of C & R but I run into some dealers who have flat out refused to ship to me even though there is not any legit reason to do so. They still have the guns that they refused to ship for all that I now or care. Life is too short to deal with stupid people if you have other options and the net is full of guns that I still need and want.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,983
The world is full of FFL holders who haven't a clue what their rules are, and getting fuller. Some adamantly insist that they will not receive a gun(interstate) for you, unless it is shipped BY an FFL. Wrong. Some others will not hand you a copy of their license so you can mail it to the seller. What do they think you will or can do with it, other than the intended use? I would never ask or do anything that might jeopardize an FFL's license but it's darned annoying that so many are ignorant of the proper rules. What does it prove to them or anyone else that an interstate firearm to be transferred comes FROM an FFL? Nothing! The shipping FFL doesn't run a background check on the seller! The only important thing is that the background check on the new owner is properly done, as needed.
I started this thread just as a length of time update. However, it always brings out a few wrong answers and misinformation. Please, everyone, if you want to know the fine details about this subject, go to the ATF website and read the FAQs for youself. Now that I are one(C & R), I may not ever even use it. I'm trying to buy a new truck.
Thanks and Merry Christmas to all,


> Jim Legg <

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,852
Likes: 151
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,852
Likes: 151
It's true that the Fed regs don't require that the seller provide an FFL copy to the receiving FFL but if that's the way they want to do it, then so be it. Also, some state laws may require it. NY does for handgun transactions and for handguns received for gunsmithing work if coming from out of state. Also, a license copy provided to an individual could be used to purchase a firearm by presenting it and the person represents themselves as the licensee. If no further ID check of the person is done, and there usually isn't at most GunShow transactions, then the firearm is purchased by a nonlicensee with someone elses FFL. Not what I want happening with my FFL if I can prevent it. It can still happen though with all the copys that change hands and the number of people involved. Stamping or writing over the copy in large letters 'File Copy For XXXX' with the other licensee's name/shop is one way to try and keep the copy from being reused for other than it's intended purpose. A clean copy can quite easily be altered and recopyied with new dates, addresses,names with a handy computer person and passed off as an original. FFL EZ Chex will check the validity of 01 FFL but does not have 03's in the file. When receiving a firearm and booking it in, I like to have some good soild ID of where it came from. If you've ever been through a BATF FFL audit or a BATF gun trace, you'll know why. If not, some advice is to make sure you have that solid aquisition information in the book. just my .02,,thanks

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.186s Queries: 81 (0.145s) Memory: 1.0000 MB (Peak: 1.9000 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-05-17 16:59:44 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS