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Joined: Feb 2002
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OK, do C&R holders have to answer that question or not. Are they even asked the question? What is the requirement for selling guns you bought on your C&R? Is there some kind of limit? Thanks for reply.

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Hi Bill,
as far as I understood that A&D question (7a and 7b)was that is was always on the form,which is the same for 01 and 03 FFL's,and the first time I renewed 3 years ago I had a letter stating that C&R 03 did not have to answer it (like the business hours just put N/A).Evidently they did not put that letter in this time so it was assumed that this needed to be answered.Of course call to them could yield answers of both yes you did and no you didn't have to answer it.
I answered it as it didn't really bother me to tell them something they could see if they wanted anyway.However I was not pleased that the CLEO was now privy to that info as I do not have to show them if I don't want to.
Just the way I did it not saying that the only way.
Hope that Helps,
best,
Dave K

Last edited by Dave K; 12/19/07 11:59 AM.

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"Could see it if they wanted", "Don't have to show them if I don't want to.". Are both of these quotes referring to the information about how many gun we have sold? They seem to be conflicting statements. CLEO??

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CLEO=Chief Law Enforcement Officer, ie the Chief of Police of the city or the Sheriff of the county where the C&R premises is located. A copy of the application or renewal must be sent to the CLEO. Of course, it has the answer to that question so he will have that info. Mine went to the sheriff of the county who approved my original application 3 years ago.

Last edited by Bob Blair; 12/19/07 01:33 PM.
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The differnce is the BATF could do an inspection and look in the bound book at any time.That has always been the case with any FFL but the CLOE does not have that authority.I,or any FFL holder,when applying for my license agreed the let the BATF see the book and inspect me.Without a legal warrant the PD can not.
Or in plain english,the Chief of Police or anyone else who has acesss to the file with those copies of the FFL applications has no business knowing how many guns I bought or sold,by applying for the license I have agreed to let the BATF know if they want but not the PD.


Last edited by Dave K; 12/19/07 03:30 PM.

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I would assume that the CLEO can be sent a copy without the answer to that question. The way I understand the application process, the copy that goes to CLEO does not go forward and the actual application copies do not go to CLEO.

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Does anyone here happen to have a reproducable copy of the form tht's required to be kept by anyone with a C&R license?
Jim


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Jim,
you mean the bound book?
http://www.type03.net/BoundBooks/ROsterman-Boundbook.xls

Bill,
I am not sure if an incomplete copy is acceptable and you do sign that you sent it to the CLEO with the date on the application.

Dave

Last edited by Dave K; 12/19/07 06:35 PM.

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Jim,
The ATF website has the requirements here http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/...7cfr478.125.htm

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478--COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart H--Records

Sec. 478.125 Record of receipt and disposition.

(a) Armor piercing ammunition sales by licensed collectors to
nonlicensees. The sale or other disposition of armor piercing ammunition
by licensed collectors shall be recorded in a bound record at the time a
transaction is made. The bound record shall be maintained in
chronological order by date of sale or disposition of the armor piercing
ammunition, and shall be retained on the licensed premises of the
licensee for a period not less than two years following the date of the
recorded sale or disposition of the armor piercing ammunition. The bound
record entry shall show:
(1) The date of the transaction;
(2) The name of the manufacturer;
(3) The caliber or gauge;
(4) The quantity of projectiles;
(5) The name, address, and date of birth of the nonlicensee; and
(6) The method used to establish the identity of the armor piercing
ammunition purchaser.
The format required for the bound record is as follows:

(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each
licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and
disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this
paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed
below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall,
except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not
later than the close of the next business day following the date of such
purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of
receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the
person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if
any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the
firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or
relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days
following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to
a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained,
until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial
documents maintained by the licensee, and be readily available for
inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other
disposition of each firearm curio or relic, the name and address of the
person to whom the firearm curio or relic is transferred, or the name
and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a
licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a
licensee. In addition, the licensee shall cause the transferee, if other
than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in
commercial transactions (e.g., a driver's license), and shall note on
the record the method used. In addition, the licensee shall--
(1) Cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified
in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a
driver's license), and note on the record the method used, and
(2) In the case of a transferee who is an alien legally in the
United States and who is other than a licensee--
(i) Verify the identity of the transferee by examining an
identification document (as defined in Sec. 478.11), and
(ii) Cause the transferee to present documentation establishing that
the transferee is a resident of the State (as defined in Sec. 478.11) in
which the licensee's business premises is located if the firearm curio
or relic is other than a shotgun or rifle, and note on the record the
documentation used or is a resident of any State and has resided in such
State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the transfer of the
firearm if the firearm curio or relic is a shotgun or rifle and shall
note on the record the documentation used. Examples of acceptable
documentation include utility bills or a lease agreement which show that
the transferee has resided in the State continuously for at least 90
days prior to the transfer of the firearm curio or relic.
(3) The format required for the record of receipt and disposition of
firearms by collectors is as follows:

[[Page 158]]



Firearms Collectors Acquisition and Disposition Record
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Description of firearm Receipt Disposition
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name and Name and For transfers
address address Driver's to aliens,
Serial Caliber or name or name Date of license No. or documentation
Manufacturer and/or importer Model No. Type or Date and Date and birth if other used to
gauge license license nonlicensee identification establish
No. No. if nonlicensee residency
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sorry about the format crunch in the example above, but the link to the web available template above seems to comply.






Last edited by Chuck H; 12/19/07 06:49 PM.
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I think I kept a copy of the application form but don't know where it is. Therefore, I have no idea what 7A or 7B questions are. If you would post the questions, I'd probably remember what I answered.


> Jim Legg <

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