doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "abeille"

Now that was funny!!! First no name gun that I buy is going straight to the engraver.-JB

Well ok then...Ted...

The question of civility always rested with you guys...I didn't wait my turn because I wanted to, it was because you guys forced me to. The fact that I grumble about being forced doesn't mean the responsibility of civility lies solely with me. We'll all see how you guys behave for the remainder of this thread.

So just so that all the readers are on the same page let's start with the Darne toggle axel. Is this the toggel lock axel that your speaking of?

To quote Ted...

"While I'm sure there are people that believe a large treasure trove of information exists/ will be forthcoming in a book about French guns, this ignores the basic fact that France has suffered through two periods of unfriendly occupation right in the middle of the golden age of gunmaking. Records were lost, destroyed, stolen and outright obfuscated during both periods of occupation. I tried some basic research at the libraries in Lyon and St. Etienne when I was there, and almost nothing I could use was to be found. I wish I could tell you exactly who built this gun, where and at what time frame it was built, but, I can't, and anyone else who might is AWOL, at present. Until that guy shows up, we can endlessly speculate about the above, or, delve into some simple facts about low grade sliding breech guns in general, low grade clones, in particular, of which no one should argue that this gun most definitely is, and when quantities of money that involve things like restocking should be thrown at those guns."

Is anyone buying this nonesense? The French lead the way in catalog collecting...There are several books on Darne and Charlin just over the horizon...

As for Ted's denial of any forthcoming book...he missed the boat...twice...the 320 page reference book on the guns of Regis Darne is already in the second edition...the title is...Les Fusils de chasse de Régis Darne...by J.C Mournetas...


then there is the less comprehensive book titled "Le fusil Darne 1974-1979" by L. Forissier. 85 pages ...

not to mention all the other French books where Charlin and Darne are covered in the book but not in the title...

I can't address beag's question with these gale winds of disinformation blowing in....

I don't think they're buying it anymore Ted, but that's only my opinion...

Here's the Charlin patent number that you requested...FR995122 ...I'm pretty sure I found an earlier reference to plume barrels buried in another patent issued to Regis Darne in the twenties

So that everyone can move on...is that the toggle lock axel that you refer to or not? yes or no

The problem with references on French shotguns, such as those mentioned above by Robert, is that they're written in French. Most people in this country neither read nor speak French. Not only are those references in French, but they are full of gun terminology, which is not the kind of French you learn in school--as I can verify, since I have both a BA and an MA in the language, and have taught it myself at a couple universities. I've learned a decent amount of "gun French" simply because I'm interested in guns and already knew French to start with. But generally speaking, for the reasons cited above, good references on French shotguns are not readily available to your average American with an interest in shotguns in general, nor French shotguns in particular. Example: When I first saw the term "les ailes" in reference to a side by side, I thought to myself, "What in the hell does that mean--a shotgun with wings?" Finally figured out, on my own--because it sure as hell ain't in any French dictionary I have--that the term referred to sideclips. And I have seen (I'm sorry to say) translations directly from the French, literally, that simply don't make sense to native speakers of English who know guns but don't know French.

I even have a copy of a great French reference on shotguns and ballistics: "Tir des Fusils de Chasse" by General Journee. Problem is, it's full of a lot of technical engineering and mathematical terminology, and my background is literature--so even for me, it's very tough sledding. Now if I had degrees in both French and engineering, I might be able to render some of that text into decent English.

But to get back to Beagle's situation, Ted's points are very well-taken--even if he did transpose the i and the e in "Abeille". Is this really a gun in which Beagle wishes to invest in order to end up with a "shooter"? If it has some sort of sentimental value, perhaps so. Otherwise . . . well, back in my early days playing with doubleguns, I forked over the cash for some very nice Bishop wood and had it put on a Stevens 20. Gun looked great afterwards, much better than a Sterlingworth or a Trojan, but it was still a Stevens--and God knows it didn't handle like a Sterlingworth. So regardless of who made it and when, the issues are: 1. What's a decent restocking job going to cost? 2. What will the gun be worth with a new stock? And finally: 3. Will it handle like a Darne (or clone) did as originally stocked, or will it handle like a Stevens with a sliding breech?

OK...this conversation is moving on without TED...

here's catalog photo of a 1929 Charlin with the toggle lock axel...The axel appears in the Charlin patent drawings as far back as 1904 GB29433...


I really have no time to address all the mis??? disinformation ... I really don't want to spend any time proving that Ted has his hat on backwards...but if I don't, and simply answer the question at hand, the experts will denounce my information as "wrong" without a single bit of evidence to back it up.

When the catalogs of the era and the patent records of the era don't match up with the notions of this boards most esteemed members...what am I supposed to do...alter the data to fit their notions?

I'm not saying that I'm correct in my assessment of Darne/Charlin history...but the patent record and the catalogs can't just be ruled out...

Are you starting to see why it's so difficult to post data at this system? After you've done all the work of researching, and all the work of posting...these guys come out and say "naw, that's wrong" and walk away...

There's no harm and no shame in addressing the truth...when someone takes the time to set the record straight after several heaping helpings of "oats once through the horse" have been left behind, it's hardly the time to complain by saying "I don't like the tone of your words"

It's OK if you don't like my tone, I don't like your oats, and that's OK too

in other words, when you're activley stonewalling someone...to say that you don't like their tone is like adding insult to injury...and you know it

Beag,
What they forgot to mention was...That one piece sliders are perhaps the easiest doubles to restock. The action inletting is only slightly more complicated than a fore end iron of near any other shotgun. Shown below is a barreled action that I bought for $125...I inletted the action with my beginners inletting skills...when I got to the tough part (the fore end escutcheon) I paid a local stockmaker...it turned out so well that I also paid him to inlet a skeleton Niedner butt plate, but you don't have to go that far, a regular buttplate will do.
I'll bet there are 25 guys right here who would gladly buy your barreled action should you choose to not restock it...

As you can see, I haven't checkered the gun yet, but at under $250 investment, it feels as though I'm probably "safe" in my investment.








The whole action is like one big fore end iron...as you can see from the pictures

To quote Larry Brown..."And finally: 3. Will it handle like a Darne (or clone) did as originally stocked, or will it handle like a Stevens with a sliding breech?"



I'll let the scale and the readers be the judge...it's a 16ga


Here's another photo that shows the gun hasn't been cut down and still weighs just over 5 1/2 lbs...the barrel length is 26 3/4 inches with 14 1/2 LOP and 42 1/2 over all length

That's great, Robert . . . assuming Beagle wants to do the work himself and has the skills to do so. But that's a bit like me assuming that you can translate passages from "Madame Bovary" into English. I can, but I would not assume that anyone else can, without knowing something about their background in French.

And where'd you get the wood? Carve the stock yourself, from scratch? Can you point Beagle to a source of semi-inletted Darne/Charlin stocks, assuming he wants to go that route?

It's still a question of what's out there on the used market with a stock already attached, for how much, compared to how much the wood would cost (assuming there's a source of semi-inletted stocks, like you can get for most American break-action doubles), whether Beagle can do it himself, etc. A few years back, in Dijon, I could've bought a very basic Charlin 16 but very nice condition--sorry, but nicer than yours--for about $800. Wish I had.

C'mon Larry,
This entire quagmire is of your making...you could have just let me continue to converse with Beag two weeks ago ...now you say all I had to do was say ooops, I misspelled something...everyone knows that in fact it was you that needed to ask a point of clarification about my misspelled word...you see Larry, as is usually the case with misspelled words, the writer often doesn't realize that he misspelled the word.

Yet you still continue to get in the way of the transfer of information...I tell Beag of an alternate way that I resurected a slider, in hopes that he may find his own alternate route, and all you can do is stand on the brakes and cite your credentials.

I have an idea...how about you contribute something constructive to this thread...seeing how you've already damaged it beyond recognition...maybe press those rusty French skills into service and help determine if his gun is of Charlin or Darne descent. I think you owe Beag something pretty substantial at this point.

I'll tell you what Larry, if you make a constructive contribution (premium oats)... I'll donate and mail a well seasoned bastogne walnut stock blank to Beag...

The bigger the contribution that you make, the higher the grade I will send...hopefully I'll have to send him two...one to learn on and one to keep...

Larry,
There's no reason whatsoever for you, Ted, and I to be seemingly opposed to one another...in fact the exact opposite is the case...darnation is trying to build an electronic bridge between French and American collectors...I would like to see him achieve his goal...if the French bridge builders even smell used oats, it won't go well for the bridge...

I have a proposal to offer you...I'll send you every patent that I have associated with Darne/Charlin (less than 50)...you crunch the French the best you can and tell us all who should be credited for what...(I suspect Santiot to be a key player, no pun intended).

In the mean time, I'll continue to ransack several European patent offices to see if any new patents have been added to the databases in the last two years.

You can get Ted to help you, it has to be better than talking about Lowell's underwear...

If you agree...everyone will win...Beag will get additional info and the stock blank...Ted will get the info he sought at the library in France...You, the readers, and I will get a crash course in sliders...and we'll all be better prepared to use to use the bridge.