doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com help with a Bayard Arms side by side

Been trying for many years to find info on a shotgun passed on to me by my dad. It's a Bayard Arms side by side. Think it's a 12 guage?? He got it from a guy many years ago that had found it in the rafters of an old farm house. Payed $10.00 and a pint of whiskey for it. Lol.. Anyways, marks on the barrel are "patent 488366 decb 20, 1892" also says "pieper breech" and also "compressed steel belgium" on the bottom by the barrel lug it says "choke 180" and has numerous proof marks also. Had it for quite a few years and just wondered if it was rare??? Unfortunately the bores are pitted badly enough to where I wouldn't want to shoot it. I don't think I would anyways if they weren't. Just hopin someone could help me with this, this is the only site that I have found that even mentions anything about "Bayard Arms" I could find. Any help is appreciated!!! Thank You!!
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jayzbird,

Welcome.

Bayard was a trade name for Pieper, one of the largest of the Belgian gun makers. Henri Pieper, whose father was German, started the firm in 1859. About the time guns like yours were 1st made his son Nicolas Pieper had taken over. The patent date refers to the barrels. This gun would have been a Modified Diana. Bayard was a mythical horse or knight depending on which myth you follow. I prefer the horse myth myself.



Does it have external hammers? If can post some pictures of the barrel flats and the receiver markings, it may be possible to tell exactly what year the gun was made.


Pete

Thanks for the help! I can take pics of the top and bottom of the barrels. How would I get them on the post like yours? And yes, it does have external hammers. What would a gun like this be worth roundabout? Not that I would ever sell it.

Here is the FAQ on posting pictures.

Pete

You can find information about interpreting Belgian proof marks here http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=17575181

And about the Pieper firms here
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20p/a%20pieper%20en%20tete%20gb.htm

Sorry,

Here is the link:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...0df792#Post6339

Can you describe your Bayard...if I have it in a catalog, I'll post it

Here is a picture of my Pieper/Bayard 16 gauge hammergun. It is definitely NOT a JABC. Apparently they made some nice guns as well as low end.

sv

Steve,
Yes...they made some extremely nice guns, especially the ones bound for Germany and Europe ...but that doesn't excuse them from the fact that they made more JACB's than all other European firms combined....It's been my general observation that when a gun is well made at the Pieper factory they are generally marked Bayard, but not always...when you see a gun that's of higher quality than Bayard, they are generally marked Henri Pieper...

It's just and unrefined observation...take it with you to the gun show, and cross check my observation for yourself...

When a Pieper is JABC, they are usually assigned a whole pile of names like W Richards, T Barker, Wm Moore, Manton, Jannsen, Dumoulin, Interchangable, Machine Made, and many more...The unraveling of what's what with this maker is more than I care to research, and for that reason I know very little about this GIANT Belgian maker.

As to your hammergun, according to this catalog...

model 335 has a round Greener cross bolt

model 331 has a round x bolt with side clips

model 332 same as 331 4th fastner

model 329 has a square x bolt with sideclips

model 330 same as 329 4th fastner

and then 7 grades higher in what appears to be higher level of fit and engraving

There were numberous Dumoulin firms. There were several Jannsen firms. None of these names was "used" by Pieper.

Henri Pieper, born 1840, ran the company until his death in 1898. He personally held dozens of patents. He was also one of the principles in the founding of Fabrique National. His son Nicolas Pieper ran the company until his death in 1933. The company was in business until 1957.

While there were several Bayards involved in the firearms business. Pieper registered Bayard as a trade mark at least by 1898 and held that trade mark until the company folded.

The records do show association with numberous firms including Jean Warnant, Hippolyte Thonon, Remington, Colt, Smith & Wesson and many others.

Les Hommes, Les armes et les machines du Chevalier Pieper & Cir 1889-1957 par Michel Druart.
Histoire de l'usine Pieper-Imperia par Michel Bedeur
Cinq siècles d'armurerie liégeoise par Claude Gaier
Les Armuries de Liege en catalogues (1892-1930) par Guy Gadisseur
Le qui est qui de l'armurerie Liegeogise 1800-1950 par Gadisseur et Druart

None of these sources gives any indication that Pieper used any trade names but the following:

AEP
Adler under an on the left looking at eagle
Anciens Etablisments Pieper
Automatic Files Pieper
Automatic Gun Pieper
Automatic Pistol Pieper
Automatic Rifle Pieper
Bayard
Bayard Arms S.A.
Bayard drawing stylized of the knight with right "Bayard"
Centaur
centaur drawing with the arc
centaur with Nicolas Pieper
child (one) with before landscape shooting at crocodiles with a gun
Damascus Compound
Diane
E Leroy
Eagle (one) looking at on the left with the word Adler
Eagle Gun Works
Eclipse Compagny
EK
EK in the wood of a stag
Encircled Half-block and not encircled
ES initial interlaced into English crossings of a sword
First Arms Company
H Piepper
Henri Arms Company
Légia Pistol
Lloyd-Pistol
Modified Diana
Monarch Arms Company
N Pieper
National Arms Companay
NP
Old Establishments Pieper
Optimus
Pieper Arms Company
Pieper Gun
Pieper Rifle
Pieper Signal Bolt
Pieper Automatic Files
Pieper Compresssed Steel
Pieper Files
Pieper Pistol
Pistol Pieper Obvious
PN interlaced in an oval
Rifle Pieper's Patent
Royal Gun Works
Schutz model
Snipe in a circle
The Leader
The Rational One
The Rational one with the drawing of Venus
Yser

You continually make the claim that T. Barker, etc were produced by Pieper. Please reference the source for this. Were are the Pieper trade marks on these firearms?

Pete