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#68870 11/29/07 11:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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It has Happened!!!!My piece of Geoffrey Boothroyd Real English String that I have been 'Hanging' Guns & Rifles in for the last 15 yrs, from the overhead hot-water pipe in my Workshop,(AKA,The Museum of Perpetual Mess"...went and Broke')The 2 yr old James Purdey & Sons 28b O/U that I was measuring the "Point of Balance" for this Discussion that has been'Percolating' on this DG/Shop for several wks.The Gun was on its way to the'Deck"(NON BOUNCE 50yr old Concrete)Usually my Old English Springer,Wellington' would be in his well padded basket underneath, but he recently 'Passed on to theFields & Covers where he can run to his Old hearts content.The 'Absolutely Pristeen Condition" Purdey O/U. Didnot reach Ground Zero!! My Beloved Significant Other' Eileen, who has been'Racheting in my Ear for months,Why dont you make a Proper Noose'with 13 Knots.because that 'Crappy bit of Scottish String is ready to break!!She just happened to be doing a 'Tea run"....and managed to catch the (Aprox Replacement Cost $130,000.00)'Little Bugger as it was "Falling Earthwards"....So no damage done,let the customer know the cost of a new piece of Scottish'Hemp" will be charged to his account.....Just joking!!So my question is to the 'Person who has planted the 'Seed' into several of my Clients Minds..I dont understand how a gun can be balanced "At the Trigger"? Its set to the rear of the"Cross-Pin" (British Gunmakers Term) "Hinge-Pin"(Others)I would like be able to explain to my Client,(Who I have just Re-Stocked/Re-Barreled his Pair of Boss 12b c 1880,Perks Pat.Side-Locks)why I willnot change the"Point of Balance" just because "A poster on Double GunShop has a Theory"!!In Anticipation of a Reply....CC/dt

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Joined: Dec 2001
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I do bow, as will most, to the worthy one.
Best to you, my friend.
John


Humble member of the League of Extraodinary Gentlemen (LEG). Joined 14 March, 2006. Member #1.
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Sidelock
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Great save. I bet a guy that shoots 130K gun doesn't have to wait for one to die to get their organs.

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Sidelock
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Posts: 845
John, Stephen Hutton....Gunsmith Extrordinaire" was here Wed. is giving "Helping Hand" with "Waterlogged From Scottish Moors,Bogs.Flooded Land Rover, etc.Pair of Henry Atkin 12b's. Sure is nice to have someone working on the Bench with me who knows exactly the correct proceedure for 'Doing all this Stuff" That we Of the chosen few are cursed to do for the rest of our lives.....Oh to have had the opportunity of a College 4 yrs. instead of learning to eat French Walnut dust soaked in Youngs'303'....Beach Boys, Connie Francis.The Carpenters.....Jimmy H. Gratefull D.Gerry Mulligan, Brubeck.Pom-Poms.Back Seats of 59 Chevy,s..Such is life!!So John, next time you head East, give a"Bell"..dt.

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Joined: Dec 2001
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Soon, my friend.
I hope to bring my Stormy friend with me and perhaps your Portsmouth helping hand will join us.
It will give this old man great pleasure.
As an aside---those with the many years of reading seem to wend their way to you that have breathed the dust. Hat in hand and pocket book open. Such is life and as it should be. Even Popes bowed before the da Vinci, Michelangelo, Donatello and Bernini art.
Few man have achieved such status. It is not reading that brought men such as you to the pennacle. It is God given talent, strength of ideal and a lust for greatness instead. Yep, few will have it written that they are/were great. I am pleased to have known one that is.
Best,
John


Humble member of the League of Extraodinary Gentlemen (LEG). Joined 14 March, 2006. Member #1.
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Sidelock
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Jagermeister,
A guy who shoots $130,000 guns can buy his own organs.
There are hundreds for sale over here.
You should see the number of Methodist Chapels they are knocking down to build 'Housing Association' accomodation for our European Immigrants.
Does a guy with a $130,000 Purdey really want a Wurlitzer?????
Also why didn't he buy Joe Nickerson's 28 bores? Apparently they didn't go at first, but then went for a song.

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Well now XC to get back to your question, I read all the multi-pages on that balance thread & don't really recall anyone stating the gun should "Balance" at the trigger. I do recall a very knowledgable poster saying he recommended "Measuring" the balance point from the trigger rather than the hinge pin, as the trigger is in a much more constant location in regards to ones hand than is the hinge pin, which of course varys acording to type of action (length of bar). If a short action boxlock & long action sidelock for instance both balamced "At the Hinge" they would have a totally diferent feel. On the other hand if they both balanced at the "Same Distance Forward" of the trigger (front in case of two) they would have a much more consistent feel. Amazing anyone has been succesful enough to be able to afford a 130K shotgun without being able to decipher reading. Tell your clients to learn basic reading skills before teling you how to build their shotguns.
Signed a "Redneck Hillbilly" but even I know how to read.


Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Sidelock
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'Person who has planted the 'Seed'? Could this be me? I hope so. I'll answer the question anyway.

The gun balances where it balances until someone (with luck, a master such as yourself) adds, removes,or redistributes weight. The issue is reference point, not where it balances. You can reference to hinge pin, breech face, trigger guard, muzzle, butt, grip cap, stock oval and all points between. The reason for selecting (front) trigger as the reference point is to allow direct relevance to hand placement and to allow a consistant measurement among all types of guns. Pumps and autos don't have hinge pins, but they surely do have a balance point; could happen that a shooter would wish for commonality or comparison of balance between a pump and a break-open gun.

I would never tell someone the actual location of balance for his own guns. I will, however, tell him the best way to reference it. Your customer needs to work out with you what location of balance he really wants. I suggest that the two of you use distance in front of the (front) trigger. The average for 6 1/2# game guns is 4 1/2" from front trigger to tetter-totter balance point. That is near the hinge pin of many guns and not so close on others. I'd bet your customer has spent a fair sum of time and money on determining his desired stock dimensions. Have him spend a little time and, possibly, money on determining the handling characteristics he wants. For sure he should know desired weight and location of the balance point. If he wants to dig deeper, the he should learn desired swing efforts.

I hope it is clear that I do not recommend having the balance point at the trigger. I do recommend referencing balance point to the (front) trigger, just as LOP references the trigger. Everyone surely understands that the LOP reference from the trigger is not a recommendation that the butt be located at the trigger.

Please post back it there are remaining questions.

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Sidelock
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Rocketman, once again you are talking sense.Common sense we all know isn't common nowadays.
A friend of mine is obsessed with gunfit and balance, so much so that I believe his DT10 has had surgery every week for the past 3 months.
He had a gun similar to mine last year but was unhappy with the balance so he sold it and bought the DT10. Each week he holds my gun and opines he wished he had one that felt the same.He has failed to see that it is one of four that I use and each one he wishes he had.It has yet to register that I may have altered my guns to suit my desires.
The point I am trying to make is, balance and fit will always be down to the individual owner at the end of the day.
Keep on swinging.

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solopian - clearly, you understand this issue. Thank you for the kind words.

Just as a shooter will have a prefered set of stock fit dimensions (or sets for differing shooting purposes), so will he have a set,or sets, of prefered handling parameters. Weight, balance (tetter-totter point), and mounted and unmounted swing efforts define the gun's dynamics. I continue to advocate what I find to be the most meaningful way of measuring and recording these parameters. Knowing the parameters of guns you like will give you a way to objectively tell someone else. Weight, balance, and swing efforts can be replicated. But, to replicate, you must first know what you are replicating. So, you have to measure.

Last edited by Rocketman; 11/30/07 12:01 PM.
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