doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com H&H New Paradox

All,

Stopped by H&H in London 2 December while in transit to Kuwait and Khartoum. Had a chat with Russel Wilkin, the well-known technical director and Patrick Murphy, an old friend who runs the gunroom.

H&H will have a prototype new CNC round action 12 bore at the SCI show with barrels in the white. They will take delivery shortly of a quantity of newly-made Paradox rounds (.735 fosbery heads). Lots of work still to be sure barrels regulate, but my impression is that light at the end of this tunnel is glimmering.

The gun will be far cheaper than a Royal but not for the faint of wallet...

Regards, Tim

what is with ammo, please dont say they load in a plastic case.

pwm,

Regret that I cannot recall clearly. I'll ask when I can...

Regards, Tim

I fear the end of the world is coming when they load in plastic cases. what have we allways seen in the last years:plastic on handguns, plastic on boltguns, plastic on double rifles

is nothing there can stop this

Gents,

Brace yourself for the end! I saw plastic!!

This week I used my 12 H&H Paradox to gather two pheasnat and a beautiful buck. If you want to see pics, let me know.

John

John

Gents,

Brace yourself for the end! I saw plastic!!

This week I used my 12 H&H Paradox to gather two pheasnat and a beautiful buck. If you want to see pics, let me know.

John

Dixie Slugs (dixieslugs.com) has had a copy of the Paradox slug on the market (loaded & slugs) for some time. The Terminator slug has a crimp grove for those that wish to load in brass cases. The Xterminator slug is a modern copy of the Paradox slug. Both run .732".
Dixie Slugs has 12 ga. 3" rounds loaded at the following:
Terminator@1200'/" (the smokeless Paradox velocity)
Express@1300'/"
Xterminator@1400'/"
These slugs are hand cast from bullet alloy and heat treated.
All of these loads have been tested for pressure/velocity by Ballistic Research
So far this season 8 large deer have been killed with Terminator. More info at Dixie Slugs.....James

JAZ,
Hmm, hat trick.
Would be great to see those pix.

Tom

Dixie Slugs,

I own a H & H paradox, vintage 1910. I have only used it for shotshells, however, I would like to put some rifle rounds through it. I have no interest in loading for it myself. The bore is .740. Would any of your loaded slugs work with this gun.

Regards,

Max

Max,

Issue is not bore size, but rather the size of the chokerifling itself. My bore size is close to .740, but the groove diameter of my chokerifling is .733 so I use a .735 very soft lead fosbery head.

The Dixie slug sounds as if it is relatively hard so you risk a ring bulge by trying to force it into a tight choke rifle. But, if the head is only .732 it may not risk a ring bulge, depending on your rifling diameter, it may just fail to take the rifling at all, risking accuracy.

Be good if anyone who has used these slugs in an old Paradox can give us a report based on facts rather than just speculation such as I've produced above.
Best of the Season and in the New Year, Tim

Tim and anyone else with a paradox. How well does a paradox actually shoot? I see them with sights graduated out to 300 yards. Is 200 realistic?
Thanks

Tom

Tom,

I've yet to get my barrels properly regulated to group together at 100 yards so my experience is inconclusive.

The literature, including Graeme Wright's Shooting the British Double Rifle 2nd Edition, says they are equal to an express rifle up to 100 yards. The magnum and supermagnum versions are said to be much better over longer distance and the smaller gauge versions, 16 and, especially 20 with the latter's 420 gr. projectile are also said to shoot well. A book is forthcoming and another DGJ article by a separate fundi who is working up his 20 gauge Westley Richards Fauneta will appear shortly.

Best of the Season and in the New Year, Tim

Mr. Carney,

Here are the measuements on my H & H paradox.
Bore 0 behind chokes .740
Minor 0 at muzzle .702
Groove 0 at muzzle approximately .715

Do you think I can obtain loaded slugs for this gun from Dixie Slugs or some of the new paradox ammo from H & H?

Regards,

Max

Max,

As Tim mentioned, be very careful with the hardness of Dixie slugs. First off, these are 3" slugs and unless your gun is a rare magnum type, I am sure it is a 2.5" Holland specifies 16 to 1. Dixie is talking about"bullet alloy" whatever that is , and heat treated which is extremely hard in most cases. If you bulge your gun at the muzzle, it is over! I would shoot something less than a .735 myself. Bullet velocity is generally about 1500 - 1100 with slightly higher for nitro.
Accuracy, my best, is about 1.5" groups at 50 yards. Many factors influence what acuuracy you get and unfortnatley it is a trial and error deal. Loading these is very straight forward. Note that the wadding will play a critical role in addition to bullet size.
I have two guns, a 12 and 10 made within a year or two of yours. I would seriously rethink shooting a bullet as hard as described. Remember your not tlaking about an 870, put a fine vintage gun.
JAZ

Max,

My mistake, velocity 1050 , not 1500.

JAZ

Max,

My mistake, velocity 1050 , not 1500.

JAZ

I've been following the Fauneta saga for about as long as it's been in print lately. Saw the latest installment in DGJ and just thought that he better either have a CNC lathe or a lot of free time.
After the interesting time I had getting my 20 to shoot reasonably well and then have that time and effort proven useless after 50 yards, I can understand why he did it.
Time to get access to a CNC machine.

Tom

Dear Max,
The Dixie Slugs Terminator Series are excellent loads, but NOT for old Paradox Guns. They're designed to be used in MODERN GUNS.

You would probably be much better off to order a projectile mold or complete tool set from H&H to load your own or ask Dixie Slugs to load the correct H&H slug for you...
One of the guys on this forum shared a diagram with me a while back. You might be able to get a mold cut for this paradox bullet...



There's an excellent article on loading Paradox slugs for the H&H in Handloader Magazine #227, FEB, 2004.

According to Ross Seyfried, he finally got his 12bore Paradox to shoot well after he sized his slugs so they would slide down the barrels by their own weight to the rifling...

GOOD LUCK & HAPPY NEW YEAR!

In London 7 Jan after a month in Sudan on final photo shoot for the Book Project 9 (we were in Kenya for signing of the permanent ceasefire in the 50 year civil war between the north and south).

Called Patrick Murphy at Gunroom H&H. The paradox is in the shipment for the SCI do. some 1000 rounds of ammo are due at H&H for chronographing and pressure testing. Barrels are in the white because they will need regulating...

Best to all in new Year, Tim

Tim, I was hoping that Holland and Holland would be at the SHOT show. I emailed Russell Wilkin, but he will be at the SCI Show and not Shot. It will be just the other way around for me.

Best,
David

Gents,

I believe my H&H paradox is a magnum gun. It is proofed for 750 grain bullets. There is information that came with the gun that indicates the bullets should be loaded with 33 grains of cordite powder. The chambers are 2 3/4. I do not want to load for this gun. Do you think the new H&H paradox ammo would be suitable for this gun, or do you think I should contact Dixie Slugs with the specs and have them make up some rounds? Does anyone have contact information for Dixie Slugs.

Regards,

Max

Proper moulds for the 750 gr. Fosbery Bullet are available from a maker in Austrailia. I don't have the email address right now, but you might PM Marrikai to get it. Holland and Holland has a daunting task ahead of them in regards to ammunition. They must make cartridges that will regulate in Paradox guns they made a hundred years ago AND regulate a gun they are building now for use with the same ammunition. My best guess is that you would have the greatest success by loading for your own gun. Best of luck. The Paradox is a wonderful gun.

Best regards,
David

David,

If I understand your comment corrently,would H&H be in the process of developing ammo for my paradox? If this is the case I will wait for them. Is this the case?

Regards,

Max

Max,

Usually guns that are regulated for a particular velocitiy will not regulate for a bullet of a different velocity, but sometimes it works. What does it say on your barrels, "Nitro Paradox" or "Magnum Paradox" Can you give the serial #?? Whatever you do, please don't shoot the Dixie slugs!! Reloading these is absolutley simple - even I can do it.
John

Max,

I think that H&H had two loadings for the 12 Bore Paradox. JAZ may have better information than I. As long as the regulation of your gun has not been fooled with over the years it should regulate with modern loads of the 750 gr. Fosbery projectile at 1050 fps., in theroy. There are other factors that affect regulation in the Paradox, such as the wad used, that do not apply to double rifles. I agree with JAZ, load for your own gun. There is some trial and error in getting the proper wad to work, but it is not technically difficult. They were, after all, made to be loaded by hand in the most remote corners of the world.

Best regards,
David

Jaz,

The serial number is 15910. I will check the proof on the barrel tonight and post the information tomorrow. I believe it is marked 750 cordite magnum.

Jaz,

Just got off the phone with H&H in New York. They checked the serial # on my paradox and advised me that it is a nitro paradox. They also indicated that the new commercial ammo for for the new paradox is forthcoming. It will have a .740 grain bullet and they indicated that it should be good to shoot in my gun for relative accuracy up to 100 yards.

Regards,

Max

The "nitro Paradox "appeared first with Serial #15632 in 1903. If you gun is a "magnum nitro Paradox" it would most likely say it, but to check weigh it and if it is over 8 lbs, it probably is a mganum. Your gun is fairly late about 1912, I have 15881 madeis 1910.

John

Gentlemen:
A late post, apologies (busy week!), however for those who have not seen these pics before:

My 12-bore Fosbery mold (when new) from Jim Allison at Cast Bullet Engineering (CBE) in Australia:



A Fosbery projectile as cast from the CBE mold:



The catalogue of molds available from CBE is here:
http://users.bigpond.com/ammodump/cbe.html

Jim can be contacted at this address: jim.cbe@bigpond.com

It appears that many contemporary users of Paradox-type guns are confused about the correct projectile size for accurate shooting. As published in the Double Gun Journal last year, Ross Seyfried finally "discovered" the "secrets" of accurately shooting his Paradox, ie that the projectile should be only a thou or so under the smooth-bore diameter (never-mind that Graeme Wright published this fact in his book several years before!).

The Fosbery projectile is relatively soft when cast from 95:5 lead/tin alloy, and has (relatively) narrow driving bands: it was designed to swage down considerably in the choke's forcing-cone before being engraved by the rifling. Tim knows this too, though I fully respect his choice to shoot projectiles sized to the rifled-choke rather than the bore: as he says, once a ring-bulge appears behind the chokes, it is all over. Sacrificing a little potential accuracy to ensure the longevity of a valuable old rifle needs no excuse.

However...! The fact that H&H are willing to recommend their new cartridges (bullet dia .740?) be fired in max's nitro Paradox supports my contention that the practice is just as valid today as it was a century ago. If the bullet is cast 95:5 and has the Fosbery design, it should be safe to shoot at bore diameter.

The Dixie slugs are a coat of a different color, having harder alloy and smaller diameter than a traditional Fosbery. They are no doubt a marvellous modernization of the concept, but should probably be restricted to modern barrels IMHO.

Hope this helps.

Hello Marrakai,

I haven't visited with you for some time. It's been busy here too.

I know that Ross Seyfried doesn't need me to defend him and I know, too, that there is a certain amount of professional jealosy among some writers. The DGJ article that you refer to was a re-write of an article that appeared in either Rifle magazine or Handloader several years ago, before Graeme Wright's book was published. I have both versions of the article and there was very little editing done between printings. I suspect that Ross submitted the article to DGJ out of his file and they did the editing.

In any case I am hungary for anything in print about the Paradox and anxiously await the Roger Lake/David Baker book.

I hope all is well with you.

Best regards,
David

Marrakai,

Thanks for the repost. I've been buying heads from my English gunsmith when I pass through London as his mold-maker is very slow producing the mold for my Paradox. Believe I'll go ahead and get one of CBE's products.

Now, don't know where folks have gotten the mistaken idea that the H&H round is .740. It is not. It will be .735 rpt .735 as I understand it, subject to correction. I'll pass through London on the way to Kuwait 27 Jan and ask again, and those who are at SCI should check there, but my recollection is that they plan a .735 Fosbery projectile. For my rifle that would give two three thou of swaging down before meeting the rifling (bore is .740 and groove diameter .733 or so).

Regards, Tim

Marrakai-

Thanks for leaving a link to the catalog of bullet moulds, I'm intrigued. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to reach a website.
It might be my machine or my connection, but I get error notes when I -click- the link you left in your posting.
Are you sure it works?

thanks

--John

Sorry guys, looks like CBE has moved!
I'll CAST about for the new location and post it here.
Again, apologies.

David:
Thanks for the g'day. My Paradox project is on hold, again! (...or still!!). I badly injured my bank-account last year when the opportunity to acquire a .470 double rifle leapt out and bit me on the bum! details
I too keenly await more Paradox publications!

Tim:
Right, .735 makes a lot more sense. Just going by Max's post. As far as projectiles go, it is easier to cast oversize and size down, but H&H will be supplying loaded cartridges so they would have to get it right first time!

Glad you guys are making good progress and having fun: I promise to catch up one day!

Perhaps if I wait long enough, my mate will sell me his Holloway. It has P.Orr & Son on the rib, so would be particularly at home in my collection!

Tony,

That looks like a beautiful rifle, very nice wood. Best of luck with it. I enjoyed the story.

Best regards,
David

Can't find the CBE catalogue on line. I have sent an e-mail enquiry off to Jim, no reply as yet.

Meanwhile, he has a one-pager up with contact details: http://www.users.bigpond.com/JIM.CBE.htm

Jaz,

The barrel flat on my H&H paradox is marked cordite 750 bullet MA nitroproof. The gun weighs 8.1 pounds. Also, I have a copy of the ledger from H&H that shows the gun was completed 2-28-10.The gun was sent back to H&H in 1912 to have an extra set of 32 inch barrels fitted. This set of barrels have 3 inch chambers and are magnum proofed. Are you sure your gun was built in 1910?

Regards,

Max

OK, Jim wasn't aware of the problem with the ammodump link. He has most of the catalogue pages up at: http://www.castbulletengineering.bigpondhosting.com.au but at the moment that URL doesn't seem to be working either. Perhaps its a problem with the bigpond server. I can only suggest trying the addresses again later when hopefully the problem has been rectified.

MAx,

Many of the guns serial numbers do not exactly coorelate to the dates in textbooks, as they may have sat in "stock" for some time. If you have the ledger, this is the most accurate reference. At 8.1 lbs. your gun sure does sound like a magnum. With that extra set of barrels and all, you probably need to sell it as it takes up a bunch more space.....Anytime!!

John