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#6628 - 11/17/04 08:12 AM Bullet/bore fit for muzzleloading double
BrentD Online   content
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4412
Loc: Iowa
Appropriate fit of bullet to bore.

I'm looking for someone with experience shooting lead conicals in muzzleloading double rifles. I have a Lang double in 18 gauge (about .635" across the lands). The barrels' twist rate is about 48-50" suggesting that it would shoot conicals well.

To do this I need to have a mold and bump die made to produce a bullet that will be small enough to load but large enough not to shift in the second barrel when the first barrel is fired.

So, can anyone give me first hand knowledge of bullet/land-diameter tolerances? I would greatly appreciate any data that you can provide.

Thanks,
Brent
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#6629 - 11/17/04 03:26 PM Re: Bullet/bore fit for muzzleloading double
2-piper Offline
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Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 12710
Loc: Lynchburg TN
BrentD; Using Greenhill's formula for twist as L=150D²/T then you should be good for a bullet of around 1.2" long, which would be quite heavy in .635dia I suspect. You might check with your local Library & see if they have a copy of Ned Robert's "The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle". I heve read this yrs ago, & while it mostly deals with rifles of around .45 cal as I recall, it did deal a lot more with conicals than round ball guns. Might find something useful in it.
Miller
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Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra

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#6630 - 11/17/04 03:48 PM Re: Bullet/bore fit for muzzleloading double
BrentD Online   content
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4412
Loc: Iowa
Quote:
Originally posted by BrentD:
2-piper,
thanks, I have many bullet length calculators including the Greenhill which generally uses a smaller constant for lead bullets in bp rifles. But length is not my worry. It is diameter. I want to be able to fit the darn bullet down the bore w/o mashing my hand or the bullet nose with the starter. At the same time, I don't want it so loose that the bullet in the second barrel slides forward when the first barrel is fired. Diameter is the problem. Length, I can handle and it looks like around 1" long would be about right.

I've got two copies of Ned's book. Great book but nothing there on double rifles and bullet diameter.

Brent
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...never pay Dave "one more dime" (thanks Stanlie)

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#6631 - 11/17/04 04:50 PM Re: Bullet/bore fit for muzzleloading double
pwm Offline
Sidelock

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 207
Loc: germany
as I understand your problem your only chance is a patched bullet. when we think you set the powderload, a wad, say something from cycleflywads, and the bullet. the bullet, if it be a conical minie can't realy work with a wad over the powdercharge. A fullsize conical isn't practical to load but a short undersize conical bullet with the rigth patcht is the technical solution for this problem.I believe a patched bullet will allways stand the force of the first shot in a double.

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#6632 - 11/17/04 06:30 PM Re: Bullet/bore fit for muzzleloading double
BrentD Online   content
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4412
Loc: Iowa
pwm,
patched balls, I have used. They are accurate but require very small charges - like 45 grs of 1.5 fg. Anything more than that and they fly wild. Really wild. The light loads do not regulate to the sights - three-leaf express sights marked 100, 150, 200.

I am certain that the rifle can shoot flat based conicals. Pedersoli doubles are made to do this in .54 and .58 caliber and probably others. These two caliber are made with faster twist barrels for conicals while their .72 cal double is made slow twist for roundball only.

I may find that I need a felt or card wad under the bullet. No problem there. I think a circle fly wad would be a bit overkill but it might work too.

I think a patched conical is really not the way to go with the potential exception of a Paper Patched Bullet . Those happen to be the bullets nearest and dearest to my heart, but they are not appropriate for this rifle, of that I'm certain. Ol' Joseph Lang could tell me what I do need, but darned if he ain't been dead for 150 yrs or so and he forgot to write the loading formula under the lock plate like he was supposed to.

My current thinking is the .630" Westly Richards bullet from NEI made w/o the hollow point

I would probably have to have a bump die made to size this bullet up to .635" or .636" or so. That's what I'm trying to figure out right now.

Brent
_________________________
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...never pay Dave "one more dime" (thanks Stanlie)

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#6633 - 11/17/04 08:49 PM Re: Bullet/bore fit for muzzleloading double
Tom Martin Offline
Sidelock
***

Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 775
Loc: SC
Brent, these folks can probably furnish what you need. http://www.mountainmolds.com/

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#6634 - 11/18/04 06:47 PM Re: Bullet/bore fit for muzzleloading double
Tom Hall Offline
Sidelock
*

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 339
Loc: Southeast, NY
Hello Brent.

Have you thought about having a mold cut with a wide forward driving band similar to what TC does with their maxi bullet? I would think that a .150 band .003-.005 over bore would be easy enough to start but would keep it down there regardless. That in conjunction with a well lubed bullet should be ok.
One other option comes from the folks who shoot slug rifles. Some of the molds I have seen have a bullet base rebated for a cloth patch. As strange as it looks, they seem to shoot very well, although patches would be another thing to carry along.

BTW, where did you get the info on Pedersoli's 12 bore and twist info? I have another post regarding this.

Still curious about that.

Good shooting

Tom
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#6635 - 11/18/04 07:09 PM Re: Bullet/bore fit for muzzleloading double
BrentD Online   content
Sidelock
**

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4412
Loc: Iowa
Tom,
Thanks for the information and ideas. I have not shot a Maxiball in a long long time, and have forgotten, if I ever knew, that the front band was larger in diameter. That's a great idea though.

Slug gun shooters - all that I know - are required to shoot paper patched bullets by NMLRA regulations. I shoot a bullet rifle that uses .45 paper patch bullets that are essentially identical to these bullets in so far as bore fit goes. I'm not sure how well ideas translate to large bore double rifles however.

The twist rates on the Pedersoli rifles I lifted from Dixie Gun Works website.

Brent
_________________________
_________
...never pay Dave "one more dime" (thanks Stanlie)

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#6636 - 12/20/04 06:01 PM Re: Bullet/bore fit for muzzleloading double
Dixie Slugs Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 21
Loc: Old Town, Florida 32680
Friends All......My friend Abe in Alaska has been shooting/hunting with Dixie Terminator in his Pedersoli ML double for some time. I just sent him some of the new Xterminator slugs. Both are cast from pure lead for him.
Gloria Ardesi just sent me the specs on their ML double.......724" on the lands and .732" in the grooves.
As posted.....Our Terminator and Xterminator are both 3", but we have Talon load in 2 3/4"
As for bullet alloy.....94% lead, 3% antimony, 3% tin. This, heat treated, gives about the same hardness of the original Paradox that was hardened with arsenic. Both the Terminator and Xterminator weigh 730/735 grs (depending on the metal).....James@Dixie Slugs
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Dixie Slugs - Home of the Original Terminator

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