doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What's an Arquebusier?

Wait a minute Larry...if Guyot imported his guns from Belgium, like you say, then how can he be a gunmaker (like you say) at the same time? You're sending alot of mixed signals here....why would a French gunmaker import Belgian doubles that he would be competing against with his own handmade guns?...so what's an arquebusier, a gunmaker or an importer...

Now you,ve got these guys on another thread thinking that L'Abeille from Paris doesn't exsist because the gun I showed has Belgian proofs...

Based in that thinking , one could say that Guyot didn't really exist because there are Belgian guns marked Guyot.

You can't play it both ways... it undermines what's left of your credibility

Mr. Chambers, I'm having a hard time understanding some of your recent posts. I have seen you share freely of your considerable knowledge and even exhibit profound generosity in so many of your posts here.

I've also seen you go way overboard when you've responded to Lowell and Joe when you felt they were singling you out for their frivolous humor. Now, having vanquished Lowell and Joe with the ferocity of your attacks on them, you seem to have taken on the role of school-yard bully by attacking anyone who questions your knowledge or even your spelling.

Publicly and repeatedly calling Mr. Vella a liar, when you were obviously mistaken and demanding that he post photographic evidence of the guns he said he owned was an outrage and I was ashamed for you. When Mr. Brown corrected your spelling of the French gun company, your response was silly. Not that you made much of a mistake (no-one on this board can spell anyhow) but if those learning here want to investigate further, they wouldn't get very far not knowing the correct spelling of the name of the company.

I greatly respect your knowledge and I appreciate your participation in this BBS. You need have little concern for me ever correcting or disputing your research; I readily acknowledge the superiority of your knowledge.

However, no matter how much you know, you are no match for the combined expertise of this Board. ("We're all experts here.") Please reconsider your approach to criticism and try to control your response to it...Geo

Your correct Geo,
Please tell me what you make of Larry and Ron Vella who admittedly set out to teach me some long overdue lesson?
How often does this sort of behavior occur? How is a member supposed to handle hostile self appointed manner teachers?

Simple, if they are wrong, politely correct the record, if they are right, just admit it. If they continue to harass you, go to their house and kill their dog...Geo


JUST KIDDING 'BOUT THAT LAST PART

Robert, was Purdey a gunmaker? How about Holland & Holland? Both, at one time or another, had boxlocks made for them by other makers. Ithaca imported shotguns made by SKB, but Ithaca also made shotguns of their own. Thus, as those examples clearly illustrate, the fact that a company makes guns does not exclude the possibility that they also have guns made for them, elsewhere, by other makers.

To get more specific, in the case of the French-Belgian connection, Le Page (also with a Paris address) was a gunmaker in France. However, I have also seen Le Page guns, Paris address, but Belgian proofs.

No "mixed signals" at all on my part, Robert . . . just your inability to understand the fact that a gunmaker may very well both make his own guns and put his name on guns made for him by others.

And if you reread my post, you'll find that I never said Guyot "imported his guns from Belgium". That's your imagination. But absent evidence otherwise--and proving a negative is pretty hard--I'd "never say never" when it comes to the possibility of a French gunmaker also importing and selling guns from Belgium. Maybe he makes the high grade ones, sells more basic ones made in Belgium. Sort of like H&H making their own sidelocks, but having Scott make boxlocks for them--which were also marked H&H.

Reality is often some shade of gray in the gunmaking world; not always either black or white.

Hi Greg, I Have an "N. Guyot Aro'r A Paris" marked double "rook" rifle in .360 long [shoots .38 specials just fine]. It weighs just under 5 pounds. It is a Belgian made rifle with no evidence of having ever been near a French proofhouse. The rifle is of medium quality, about like your average Francotte, with 80% coverage of typical Belgian scratchy scroll engraving. There are the initials "LJ" on the loop and watertable; maybe someone knows the maker? I hope this helps in your current quest.
All the best, Mal

Larry,
I know full well the understanding of the Liege and French gunsmiths that both made and imported/exported doubles...

I was playing it back to you, the way you jazz me...you know many of the readers don't understand all the complexities of makers, and you exploit it to it's fullest when you're jazzing me...as if a slight mix of the E & I completely negate the info I posted...reality and grey shades in the gunmaking industry have nothing to do with the vicious way you posted on the other thread...

You got your L'Abeille photo...now wheres the abeille photo that your supposed to produce?

I know...different standards apply for those who think they are at the top of some imaginery pecking order. You demand that I uphold a standard of proof, that I ask for (dozens), yet you can't hold that "No bull" standard yourself...

Until you apologize, all of your posts will be examined for the utmost accuracy.

Go ahead, read your post above, and ask why these same concepts of importation don't apply to L'Abeille...

Collegial and Civil

I believe those are terms under which communication of differing opinions may be commonly exchanged, with due courtesy. As well, of the many knowledgeable scholars who contribute to this board, it appears that most of them are secure and relaxed in sharing or discussing knowledge about our common passion: fine guns.

To whittle it finer, there are gentlemen on this board who can make as sharp a point as may be needed, and neatly skewer their adversary's arguments for years on end, if they wished to waste that time. For some few, at one time or another, that may have been an entertaining pastime. However, for most of the BBS folks with whom I am still in contact, there has been a cyber-maturing process. A good deal of that consists of becoming aware of the futility and self-damage of allowing ones self to either instigate or become in engaged in marginal to wholly uncivil and angry behavior.

Such an attitude and indulgence eventually devours the personality and distorts the goodness and knowledge that many who have fallen into that trap actually possess, but no longer purvey in communications. Until the person involved looks in the mirror and realizes that it's not the other fellow who is the problem, then he will feel righteous, justified and consumed on his crusade to put things right according to his own satisfaction. Such behavior can become publically diagnosable and clinical in nature, tho the world of professional mental health apparently has not produced any PhD's, holding forth expertly on 'the discovery' that would define their career.

A contributor secure in his knowledge and happy in his life doesn't have to impress anyone or 'win' anything. The enjoyment of communication and the exchange of information with like minded folks is a great reward in itself. This BBS is a wonderful resource that has educated me far beyond my own life horizons and likewise is, no doubt at all, a treasured 'place' to a world wide readership.

Yes, slash and burn the rude idiots, devastate the willfully ignorant and put a cyber-fool's head on a pike -- that may be satisfying viscerally. There are certainly no lack of candidates on many levels and BBS's. However, the damage is two edged, and in the long run only the truly pathological can continue to derive satisfaction from that sado-masochistic behavior. "Being right" every time, and the all-fronts defense of that posture, eventually destroys the value of the finest and most knowledgeable contributor. It eats him up and who wants to read his bristling and angry stuff anyway?

Should I really, really want to find an answer to or discuss some obscure to me object of interest, this is where I always start: Doublegunshop.com. A good discussion is like unto leisurely drinking with good friends around a large table on a sunny day under a shady arbor. It's a time and place to cherish and to relax from one's daily cares. Whether a person can find the venue hospitable or whether one must needs have an adversarial outlook is entirely up to that individual, as are the eventual consequences. It's a choice to consider.

Robert, what's the point of your "L'Abeille" comment--and photo on the other thread? Now that we agree, that is, that French "makers" imported and sold guns made in Belgium. And now that you've finally corrected the spelling error. What I was looking for--not knowing every French maker that ever existed--was a photo of a "L'Abielle" gun, which you insisted you had. I thought it was odd there would be another maker with such a close variation of the name--especially when I've seen "L'Abeille"--and I was simply doing my best to extract the same proof from you that you were asking of Ron Vella. That is, photographic evidence. So you gave us the photographic evidence, with the same spelling Beagle noted on his gun, and the same spelling I've seen previously. So, apparently, absent proof to the contrary, while there are "L'Abeille" guns--which I knew before the silly discussion even started--there aren't any "L'Abielle" guns.

The question does remain, however, as to whether L'Abeille ever actually made guns rather than just importing them. From a standpoint of information valuable to this audience, it would be good to know if there was a real French maker of that name (or using that name). To establish that, we'd need a photo of a L'Abeille with French proofs. Not sure whether Beagle's has those, but it would be of interest to know. And of course the same "concepts of importation" apply to all makers. I never said otherwise. The point of the discussion never was where the guns were made, but rather the correct name of the guns in question. As someone said, if you're looking for information on a gun, it's quite useful to know the correct spelling--and quite misleading if you don't have it right. Might cause someone to mistake a Belgian W. Richards for a British Westley Richards. Not a good thing.

And no, Robert, I never promised you a photo of anything. Don't own a L'Abeille, nor an Abeille, nor even one of those rare L'Abielle guns. But I do promise to produce a photo of a L'Abeille with French proofs, if I ever run across one and have a camera handy.

All you had to say was...I think you have the E & I mixed...instead you turned into a complete fiasco and disrupted the entire thread (admittedly) with your personal mission to teach me something...all I'm saying is that is a two way street

I wonder how you would like it if I decided to take it upon myself to teach you some twisted lesson, as you have done to me.

You have now said yourself, that you don't even own a Abeille or a L'Abeille...but that little fact didn't stop you from unleashing your pompous attitude...like you're the last word on French doubles...ever...

Apologize to the originator of that thread for using his thread to carry out your personal agenda...you added nothing to the understanding of that thread except to start a pissing match over a spelling mistake...NICE JOB LARRY

what's wrong with you? It's the pecking order isn't it?