I am looking at an ad for the Upland Gun Company on the rear cover of the Project Upland magazine. I detect no monoblock seam in the image. I know a member here has some, and I wish to know how their barrels are joined. TIA
I didn’t want to waste their time. Or mine. I just wanted to know how the barrels were joined. A member here has several. My optimism suggested he might reply quickly. A verifiable answer popped up here in less time than it might have taken to generate an email that may never have been answered. Now I know.
My guess is they are "Piani Fissi" or "Pianio Fisso"barrels. Don't know the English word. For the price of an Upland Gun Company/R.F.M. not likely to be Chopper Lump (in Italy "Demi Bloc). But maybe some R.F.M. models are really Chopper Lump.
The Upland Gun Company site says the Zeus are Mono Bloc and Venus are Chopper Lump. I respect Johnny Carter but I think R.F.M. may have given him the wrong info.
For the price I bet they are really the same construction I have on a Bernardelli Roma 6 and the Rizzini BR550. And same used on the current Beretta SxS they call it "Tri-Bloc" Maybe I should not be so sceptical - but have reason to be.
The Piani Fissi seems to be a somewhat simplified version of the Bonehill Patent Clip Lump of 1884.
In my Bonehill Belmont Interchangeable Hammerless, an early machine made gun, the clip lump incorporates not only the lump and barrel flats but also the top extension, lower rear rib and forend loop.
The Piani Fissi seems to be a somewhat simplified version of the Bonehill Patent Clip Lump of 1884.
In my Bonehill Belmont Interchangeable Hammerless, an early machine made gun, the clip lump incorporates not only the lump and barrel flats but also the top extension, lower rear rib and forend loop.
A verifiable answer popped up here in less time than it might have taken to generate an email that may never have been answered. Now I know.
Yeah, verifiable how, and when? The poster just below you who obviously has no small amount of knowledge about Italian doublegun manufacturing methods doesn't seem to be as convinced of their being of chopper lump construction as do you. While you now sit back convinced you have the correct answer you could have placed one phone call to the company and gotten an answer straight from the horse's mouth. While you THINK you know the answer from replies on here I reached out by phone to Upland Gun Company and spoke to their representative in an instant. He answered my question about barrel joining and the answer was NOT what you thought you "knew".
UGC said they use both mono-bloc and demi-bloc construction. Mono-bloc is the default method used on the lower priced model S X S ((Zeus) with demi-bloc being used on the upgraded model (Venus). However, and you could not have found this out with anything less than a phone call to them, they WILL build the Zeus with demi-bloc barrels upon request, roughly a $400 upgrade option.
So, CZ, while you rest in your answer you THINK is correct, based on hearsay, there is the REAL answer. You should team up with ed good. Both of you would rather generate a post designed to have someone else do your legwork for you than do it yourself. That phone call took me all of three minutes, and cost nothing. I could care less that YOU get a correct answer to your question. I made the call because I wanted to know, for my future wants. BTW, the rep I spoke with thanked me for calling and asked me to call again, so he didn't consider it a waste of his time at all.
Shocked Stan. Just shocked. You never disappoint. Maybe you should take a pill or something. You are going to have a stroke wanting to argue over Italian barrel joining.
With the wrong person.
You should chase RWG for a while.
I knew that you can’t do chopper lump barrels on $2500.00 guns in Italy.
A verifiable answer popped up here in less time than it might have taken to generate an email that may never have been answered. Now I know.
Yeah, verifiable how, and when? The poster just below you who obviously has no small amount of knowledge about Italian doublegun manufacturing methods doesn't seem to be as convinced of their being of chopper lump construction as do you. While you now sit back convinced you have the correct answer you could have placed one phone call to the company and gotten an answer straight from the horse's mouth. While you THINK you know the answer from replies on here I reached out by phone to Upland Gun Company and spoke to their representative in an instant. He answered my question about barrel joining and the answer was NOT what you thought you "knew".
UGC said they use both mono-bloc and demi-bloc construction. Mono-bloc is the default method used on the lower priced model S X S ((Zeus) with demi-bloc being used on the upgraded model (Venus). However, and you could not have found this out with anything less than a phone call to them, they WILL build the Zeus with demi-bloc barrels upon request, roughly a $400 upgrade option.
So, CZ, while you rest in your answer you THINK is correct, based on hearsay, there is the REAL answer. You should team up with ed good. Both of you would rather generate a post designed to have someone else do your legwork for you than do it yourself. That phone call took me all of three minutes, and cost nothing. I could care less that YOU get a correct answer to your question. I made the call because I wanted to know, for my future wants. BTW, the rep I spoke with thanked me for calling and asked me to call again, so he didn't consider it a waste of his time at all.
You must be so proud of yourself Stan. Congratulations.
You can't seem to comprehend a simple paragraph. Upland Gun Company WILL do chopper lump barrels on their $2499 gun, the Zeus. All that is required is to request them and pay a $400 upgrade fee.
You can't seem to comprehend a simple paragraph. Upland Gun Company WILL do chopper lump barrels on their $2499 gun, the Zeus. All that is required is to request them and pay a $400 upgrade fee.
My last post on this matter. Bye now.
Boy, I bet you feel really good about yourself today!
A better question for the maker might be what steps are taken to regulate the barrels before they are finished and shipped.
Do they even try? Are the guns test fired for regulation or do they simply induction braze things together and hope nobody complains? Can the customer specify the load used for regulation? What does the company consider adequate regulation?
I would expect a true 'custom gun' to shoot to point of hold with my specified load. How they hold the barrels together is quite secondary.
And lastly, suppose the gun when delivered cross fires by a foot. What recourse does the customer have? Is this in writing?
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
RFMdDoesn't make the barrels, or the receiver or trigger group. RFM is an assembler and finisher. No shame in that. Many gun companies outsource to the specialist in Val Trompia.
The seam in and of itself wouldn't be so bad to me. But, the addition of bands of engraving to supposedly hide it is. I have guns like that, but I wish they weren't there. It's like women who used to put colored makeup on a "beauty mark". It only draws more attention to it, IMO.
A better question for the maker might be what steps are taken to regulate the barrels before they are finished and shipped.
Do they even try? Are the guns test fired for regulation or do they simply induction braze things together and hope nobody complains? Can the customer specify the load used for regulation? What does the company consider adequate regulation?
I would expect a true 'custom gun' to shoot to point of hold with my specified load. How they hold the barrels together is quite secondary.
When is the last time you were aware of a gun making company that guaranteed regulation, that wasn't building bespoke guns? I agree completely in the need for such, but expecting it today is living in a dream world.
Originally Posted by Shotgunjones
And lastly, suppose the gun when delivered cross fires by a foot. What recourse does the customer have?
Regulating them yourself by changing payload and velocity. I have personally witnessed huge changes and satisfactory results by doing so. Maybe not a foot, but I moved one 20 gauge 8" at 25 yards like this. Problem is that most people would rather b*tch and complain than try to do something about it themselves.
The seam in and of itself wouldn't be so bad to me. But, the addition of bands of engraving to supposedly hide it is. I have guns like that, but I wish they weren't there. It's like women who used to put colored makeup on a "beauty mark". It only draws more attention to it, IMO.
I was referring to the seam on the lumps of a Chopper Lump barrel. It would be the definitive evidence of the Upland Gun Company's claim a barrel is Chopper Lump and not Pianni Fissi. Not the seam around the barrels on a Mono Bloc barrel Take a look at what I posted earlier. Hallowell Chopper Lump
If you wish the seam weren't there take a look at the Rizzini BR550. It is Pianni Fissi - no Mono Bloc Seam. I also prefer this look. Rizzini BR550
PS: a good explanation of the 3 types of barrels from Antonio Poli. In Italian but a good demo. Nice fellow - met him at the European Outdoors Show in Verona last year. Antonio Poli - Barrel Types.
If you wish the seam weren't there take a look at the Rizzini BR550. It is Pianni Fissi - no Mono Bloc Seam. I also prefer this look.
Thank you for pointing that out.
I have a B. Rizzini SxS imported and marketed by WLM made to their specifications as 'Upland EL SxS'.
It too has an invisible barrel/mono-bloc joint. I never thought it was anything but a very well done mono-bloc and had never heard of 'Piani Fissi' which apparently involves some kind of welded joint before barrel striking.
Mine was made in 2007, so they have been doing this for some time.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
Circa 2025, how a manufacturer knits a pair of new barrels together is likely moot. Every method works, and the material is much improved from even 100 years ago. For all the complaints and bltching about brazed rib guns, it is damn hard to find one with a loose rib, a good thing, as I question how you would ever get it fixed. Kirk Merrington told me decades ago that relaying ribs on tinned and soldered barrels was a maintenance issue, and to plan on doing it, eventually.
Chopper lump, shoe lump, dovetail lump, monobloc, whatever. Take it out and shoot it.
I doubt most of us are young enough to be concerned about wearing a new gun out. I’d be more concerned about how it fit, and how well I hit flying targets with it.
I have been at the factories of many of the Italian shotgun makers. They do not test regulate their barrels. The only exception maybe Perazzi. They did show me their pattering board auto system and how it worked, but that does not mean they use it for every gun.
Bernardelli used a grid on the wall and had the barrels in vise, lined up the rings in the barrel to the grid and made adjustments with the barrel vise. They had me look through it a show me, but could not see it.
As far as mono block or chopper lump. I have items of both. I have not had issues with either. Shoot what you want and don't loose sleep over it.
John Arrieta
Last edited by arrieta2; 01/24/2511:47 AM. Reason: spelling
John Boyd Quality Arms Inc Houston, TX 713-818-2971
For more information of Bonehill’s Patent Clip lump please see the excellent article by John Campbell II in DGJ volume 32 issue 3 ((Autumn 2021) which includes this helpful illustration of the rear end view as set out in the patent application.
I have been at the factories of many of the Italian shotgun makers. They do not test regulate their barrels. The only exception maybe Perazzi. They did show me their pattering board auto system and how it worked, but that does not mean they use it for every gun.
Bernardelli used a grid on the wall and had the barrels in vise, lined up the rings in the barrel to the grid and made adjustments with the barrel vise. They had me look through it a show me, but could not see it.
As far as mono block or chopper lump. I have items of both. I have not had issues with either. Shoot what you want and don't loose sleep over it.
John Arrieta
John,
I am envious you got to visit Bernardelli before they closed. Long ago a Bernardelli Roma 6 28ga was my first SxS. Last year I visited a gunmaker in Marcheno; as you say none regulate except the top end like maybe Parazzi or F.Lli Rizzini. And drove past the closed Bernardelli factory. I found this video of Bernardelli - shows the Piani Fissi barrel at about 13:30
For more information of Bonehill’s Patent Clip lump please see the excellent article by John Campbell II in DGJ volume 32 issue 3 ((Autumn 2021) which includes this helpful illustration of the read end view as set out in the patent application.
Thanks for posting this info. I never knew this went as far back to 1884
My wife's and my guns have chopper lump, mono-block and shoe/platform lump barrels. In the past I have owned guns with dove-tail lumps. All have worked equally well for us, but chopper-lump barrels have the panache - deserved or not.
A $600 German air rifle is shipped with a test target.
Shotguns selling for many thousands are not shipped with a test target.
The rear sight on a shotgun is the shooters eye. They don’t all look to the same place. If guys buying $600 German air rifles tried shooting them at flying birds, they would trade them for new shotguns that didn’t come with a target.
Both barrels should shoot to the same place. I am aware of a Garbi that required eccentric choke grinding to achieve this and a Beretta that shot the left barrel 8" left and low that somehow was within factory specifications.
The issue defeated Sturm Ruger entirely. They got out of the SxS business way quicker than they got into it.
William Larkin Moore says this about a product they import and sell:
"All Rizzini B. guns have special steel barrels which are proof-tested at 1200 Bars, as well as pattern-tested at the factory."
I wonder if they actually do. John says no.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
I owned a Ruger Red Label that had regulation issues. But, I had purchased it used, and couldn’t point the finger directly at Ruger, since others owned it before me and I don’t know what they did.
But, I’ve been present more than once when a gun was being described as poorly regulated was fired by someone else, and the regulation issue went away. Graham, a poster here who retired after a long career at Webley & Scott, noted the same thing, many, many more times than I.
Ted is exactly right about this. So many things affect regulation of S X S guns. Among them are load being fired (not only payload weight but velocity as well), how tightly the gun is being gripped, and even the weight of the gun itself. I have tested many for regulation and found that little, lightweight sub-gauge guns are much more subject to varying degrees of regulation than are heavier, big bore shotguns.
Originally Posted by Shotgunjones
William Larkin Moore says this about a product they import and sell:
"All Rizzini B. guns have special steel barrels which are proof-tested at 1200 Bars, as well as pattern-tested at the factory."
Someone here, maybe all involved with the exception of Rizzini who I'm certain already knows, need to realize that "pattern testing" and testing for regulation are two entirely different things. "Pattern testing" is not a blanket statement that covers regulation as well, unless it is specified as such in the description.
Someone here, maybe all involved with the exception of Rizzini who I'm certain already knows, need to realize that "pattern testing" and testing for regulation are two entirely different things. "Pattern testing" is not a blanket statement that covers regulation as well, unless it is specified as such in the description.
How so?
Since the publication of Jones and the proven fact that shotgun patterns are random in shot distribution, 'pattern testing' for pattern quality (like Oberfell and Thompson did) would seem to be pointless.
This leaves us with pattern size at a given range and point of impact.
Since testing anything for confirmation of quality requires a standard to test against, certainly a reference load is chosen and the gun pointed in a repeatable fashion at some target that would record both the pattern size and point of impact.
The data would be there and instantly available after one shot from each barrel.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
Jones' publication on pattern distribution hasn't yet become so universally accepted that it now includes regulation, whether you agree or not.
Call any gun manufacturer and ask them about their guns' patterns and the reply you get will address evenness and size. They will not address regulation unless they are asked. Believe it or not.
Jones' publications on pattern distribution haven't yet become so widespread accepted that it now includes regulation, whether you agree or not.
I didn’t claim it did. Quite the contrary. I indicated that it made testing for pattern quality, ie distribution and ‘patchiness’ within the pattern obsolete unless you have an enormous sample size and even then your results are only going to validate the randomness of the system. It’s been done.
There is little doubt that regulation is trusted to accurate assembly jigs and not the old world method of test and try until it’s right.
If it isn’t right before you braze it up, it will be that way forever.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
You were discussing what ‘pattern testing’ consisted of…. if, as you claim, it does not include regulation it must be confined to pattern size and ‘pattern quality’ since there does not appear to be anything else to test when ‘pattern testing’.
My reference to Jones was to point out that the ‘pattern quality’ part of ‘pattern testing’ would now in light of modern analysis appear to be a waste of time.
I further indicated that any pattern sheet or plate shot during a factory test firing would show both pattern size and point of impact.
Thus, if they expend two shells on a completed or near completed gun ‘testing for pattern’ as the ad copy would suggest they do, they have the status of the regulation of that barrel set staring them in the face.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
I met a guy at the most recent Vintagers shoot with an Upland GC 12 gauge. It was all tricked out with vent rib on 32” extended choke tubes barrels (yuck). Anyway, it seemed like a nice gun and he liked it, a lot. $11k for all that. We didn’t discuss barrel manufacture though. He’d had the thing to the UK to shoot both clays and birds. He was looking to get another in 28 gauge. I’d like one myself.
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