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This is my first post and I am new to older guns. I inherited my grandfather's shotgun and I was told it was used in WW1. Using your site, which has been great, I was able to figure out some about what I have. The one issue has been one marking that I saw someone else ask about. The symbol is AB inside of a diamond. AB is also engraved on the barrel release. Can someone point me in the right direction of what I have. I want to be able to hand this down to my son one day and hopefully it will be handed down to my new grandson which will be here in July.
Chris Goodwin
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Last edited by Bytewrangler; 01/13/25 10:12 PM.
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Welcome to the site and your first postings French Shotgun https://www.shotguns.se/html/france.html"AB" most likely refers to the manufacturer "A. Beaufort"; a historic French gunmaker known for producing high-quality shotguns, particularly double-barreled models, and their markings often included the initials "AB.".
Last edited by skeettx; 01/13/25 10:22 PM.
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Your gun is a French 12 gauge that was double proofed with French proof powder T. It was definitely built post 1900, as that is the year that powder started being used at the proof house. It originally had 2 1/2” chambers, they may have been lengthened by now. I doubt it was used in WWI except perhaps to acquire game for the table. That action was used on many French and Belgian guns, and was produced in France for the gun trade. Gene or Fab probably know who built the gun. It should be inspected by a good double gun smith, who will measure the chambers, examine the barrels for corrosion and pitting, and advise on proper ammunition.
Good luck.
Best, Ted
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Thanks for replying back. I will probably never fire it again. Thanks for the information. I have read quite few posts on this site and it has been fascinating the knowledge shared. If there is anything else you can tell me about this gun I greatly appreciate it.
Chris Goodwin
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Thanks for replying back. I will probably never fire it again. Thanks for the information. I have read quite few posts on this site and it has been fascinating the knowledge shared. If there is anything else you can tell me about this gun I greatly appreciate it. You should follow Ted's advice, and then use it the way it was intended if it is judged to be sound. Your Grandfather would be pleased, and you would likely become even more interested in older guns. Many of us find the older double guns much more interesting than the new stuff. You have to shoot them to really appreciate them.
The"Big Tent" of Gun owners is a Big Fraud... to give cover to fools who vote for Anti-gunners.
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The AB mark has been seen before on this line but FAB's pictures seem to have disappeared: https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=541247&page=allHere are the mark-ups. It is chambered for 65 mm not 6.5 cm so it is a post 1924 Saint-Étienne gun. It has the Verney Caron "quadruple lock" top lever system that everybody insists on calling "Helice." Somebody refresh our memory about the three crossed feathers on the barrel flats. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/lJ1dhCZ.png) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/RbMMaQK.png)
Last edited by Argo44; 01/14/25 01:25 AM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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![[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]](https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/64/56/v4BR17Tv_t.jpeg) ![[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]](https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/26/d0/Zkrp1O6g_t.jpeg) Interesting the AP is in the >>Helice<< Medallion & that what looks to be Gold Bands are on the frame and not the typical barrel bands? Serbus, Raimey rse
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I just noticed the OP is from Hayden, Alabama & I just passed thru there on Sunday. Also, one of my kids plays basketball with kids there. Actually headed down to near that neck of the woods tonight.
Serbus,
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I'm wondering if this might be a WWII trophy gun. It looks like it might have been buried at one time which is what a lot of French farmers did during he occupation.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Yeah, I was thinkin' Breuil-Aulagnier, but I just don't think so..... ![[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]](https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/b1/55/Es5hr4JW_t.png) Serbus, Raimey rse
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I'm wondering if this might be a WWII trophy gun. It looks like it might have been buried at one time which is what a lot of French farmers did during he occupation. I would say it was a War Trophy. Many, many custodians buried their weapons in fear of death or a >>Siberian Holiday<<, which still existed in Russian Occupied parts of Europe Post WWII. Serbus, Raimey rse
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Anyone remember the name of the Belgian barrel maker (KAH)? He worked for Lhermite & Bruyninck at one time. I’ve seen his mark many times. TIA
Out there doing it best I can.
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Note that that the barrels and barrel flats from Rick's previously discussed AB Saint-Etienne gun are virtually identical to this new one the "inherited gun": Same crossed plumes. Anyone remember what those are? they are proof marks but from when? ![[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]](https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/56551_1024x358.jpg)
Last edited by Argo44; 01/14/25 04:20 PM.
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![[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]](https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/56551_1024x358.jpg) 4 Palm Version - Subject double plus 1 Palm ![[Linked Image from thumbs2.imgbox.com]](https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/dd/9f/jruX6cru_t.jpeg) Rick's minus 1 Palm - 3 Palm Version I seem to remember as it was some in-house proof designation? Serbus, Raimey rse
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These I believe might be Manufrance in-house proof stamps (from pre-1924?). The last crossed plume or crossed feather or crossed palm looks more fluffy. You'll note five on the barrel flats, two Saint-Etienne proofs on the barrel. https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=597374&page=6 ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/jfZoHnD.png) FAB500 advised that the above gun was made pre WWI . .but had the lighting bolt stamp for in-house proof begun in Summer 1924 for some reason. https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...Main=39635&Number=595336#Post595336?Translation of Fab's above comments on MF proof stamps! (Manufrance) lightening bolt stamp on the barrels and on the action - appeared as a Saint-Etienne proof stamp on 18 March 1924, to designate an arm proofed in the state of delivery. . .
From 1926 MF no longer used the Saint-Etienne proof house; They proofed their arms internally. The "Crowned PT" stamp, as well as the "foudre" stamp replaced them (Saint-Étienne proof house stamps) (see photo).
This information comes from this book: https://www.lamanu-armes-edition.com/
Last edited by Argo44; 01/15/25 01:07 PM.
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the crossed fronds (?) on the barrel flats are the in-house quality ratings of the tubes....examples seen here are 3 crossed fronds, another step up with 4 crossed fronds, and the mf set with 5 crossed fronds (not precisely the same stamp as the prior examples - but likely conveying the same, or similar meanings).
the mf set is also marked acier hercule tempe, as indicates a heat tempering process and is seen on upper grade guns from mf - also note that set of barrels is from a 450 double rifle...not a shotgun.
best regards, tom
"it's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." lewis carroll, Alice in Wonderland
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Similar to what I recalled but which Stéphanois manufacturer was applying said >>in-house<< crossed fronds?
Serbus,
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I'd also like to know when that "in house" proof-mark began, when it ended and who had the right to do this. Here is another AB....key and entire gun not pictured but there is an AB surmounted by a crown on the barrel flats, AB on the barrels and it has four crossed fronds or palms on the flats in addition to two Saint-Etienne proof marks and Jean Breuil barrels....interesting. https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/any-idea-of-this-french-shotgun-id.497178/![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/1qKZYTu.png) I've searched "Armurerie Bxxx" and "Arquebusier Bxxxx"...all sorts of names - tried to find lists of 1920's Stephanois gun makers, etc. No dice so far.
Last edited by Argo44; 01/15/25 07:17 PM.
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First response from Passionlachasse is that the crossed palms w/o crown on the barrel flats are an early Jean Breuil internal mark of quality. Working on getting dates. https://www.passionlachasse.com/t40...e-ab-et-un-poincon-problematique#1057260Le premier canons Jean Breuil, gage de qualité
Last edited by Argo44; 01/16/25 02:39 PM.
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Capital Effort Argo44. I assume you quizzed them on the >>AB<< trademark also?
Serbus,
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Yep. . .only one response...not much. Nous avons un petit problème ici en Amérique. Nous avons retrouvé plusieurs fusils de chasse stéphanois fabriqués par "AB" probablement au milieu des années 1920. Il y a un poinçon sur les plats de canon qui est les palmes croisées stéphanoises mais sans la couronne. Quelqu'un peut-il identifier le fabricant "AB"? Que signifient les palmes croisées sans couronne? Merci. Gene Williams, McLean, VirginiaRegarde ici pour les poinçons, super article https://jgsn-tir.e-monsite.com/medias/files/poincons-sur-les-armes.pdf Le premier canons Jean Breuil, gage de qualité
Merci. Je connais le poincon de la plupart des pays. Mais malheureusement l'article n'aborde pas les palmiers saint-étiennes sans couronne. Je suppose qu'il s'agit d'une sorte de marques d'épreuve "internes". Mais qui était autorisé à les tamponner et à quelles dates ?
Voila mon comprehension de l''histoire Breuil: Claude Breuil, fils et successeur de la canonnerie Breuil-Aulagnier. Cette canonnerie, fondée par Charles Breuil et Geneviève Marie Aulagnier, fut rachetée en 1957 par Chapuis. Jean Breuil a travaillé chez son cousin Charles Breuil pendant une petite période. Puis il créa sa propre canonnerie en 1913. Celle-ci fut rachetée en 1963 par Verney-Carron.
Apparemment, les dimensions de la chambre à Saint-Étienne ont changé vers 1924, passant de cm à mm. Cela semblerait dater ces armes d'après 1924.
Last edited by Argo44; 01/16/25 06:20 PM.
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There is a post on Passionlachasse that suggests the AB might be Breuil-Aulagnier. Here is why I think this is doubtful. Here is a collage of 8 Breuil-Aulagnier barrels. On none of these guns is there a BA or AB on the Key. There are stamps on the barrels for "Breuil-Aulagnier"..."C.Breuil"...."BA"....."CA." There is one stamp "BA" with a crown over it in an oval which might be related to our AB above but doubtful. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/3P1sUhU.png)
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Here is one of the Crowned "AB" marks from our guns and the one crowned "BA" from a Breuil-Aulagnier. There could be a connection but doubtful given no "BA" on the key: ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/oQqt0cv.png)
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there have been many discussions regarding the maker's marks on french guns - the sometimes grandiose descriptions of the "superior steel", "perfected chokes", and guaranteed this-and-that.
i am of the opinion that the "fronds" stamped on the barrel flats are purely an in-house item....i have never seen any reference that would suggest there are established standards to govern the usage of those stamps - and as such, i view them as maker's declaration of greater and lesser quality of their own products. the differing (but similar) stamps pictured in this thread, would seem to indicate they are not an official stamp - and i wonder if they should be considered to be a valid means of comparison between one maker and another? just about every maker marketed french gun seems to display some sort of emblem that connotes relative quality; these fronds, swallows, hares, the poincoins (?) on darnes (where the number of quality stampings have some correlation to the grade number of the gun - i don't recall exactly what, maybe ted will happen by and explain).
another thought that has crossed my mind, has to do with placement of the various stampings. i suspect that the only stamps applied by the government proof houses are on the tubes themselves - always at bdc on each tube slightly forward of the flats, sometimes accompanied by non-government markings, customarily directly connected to the barrel maker. i have come to wonder if the barrel flats are exclusively the playgrounds of the gun maker...i.e. of my 4 manu guns, i have 2 that fall within the period when mf did in-house proofing. thanks to fab500's posting a few years back, we know the arrow-thru-the-circle stamp is equivalent to the st.ettienne/paris stamp - but the mf marks are always (?) on the flats...not on the tubes. and, on the made for market guns - the usual placement of the retailer's name on the bottom metal - i don't recall seeing those adornments of the flats.
as usual with these guns, a discussion tends to leave us with more questions than answers.
best regards, tom
"it's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." lewis carroll, Alice in Wonderland
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I agree that the crossed palm fronds without a crown are indeed some sort of in-house mark of quality as one poster on Passionlachasse mentioned. But for whom? There are no barrel maker marks on the three AB guns or on the MF gun so presumably it might have been the AB fabricator who placed them on the AB guns and on the MF gun either MF or the unknown barrel maker (Jean Breuil according to the Passionlachasse poster). There looks be two types..the more "feathery" ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/aH53Hgj.png) and the ones that closely resemble those found on the 1913 Manufrance. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/mtw4sHd.png) As Tom mentioned who put them there ramains an outstanding question. They certainly are not on most French guns from the period. For now I'll assume that the bottom crossed fronds were indeed Jean Breuil in-house marks of quality (even if his name is not on the barrels) as the poster opined. As for the top ones.....can't say. As for dates....the three AB guns are most likely post-1924 if our understanding of the CM/MM changeover in Saint-Étienne is correct. The Manufrance is dated to c1913 per FAB500 but he noted the lightening bolt MF proof mark - begun in 1924....he could not explain the dichotomy. Gene
Last edited by Argo44; 01/17/25 04:50 PM.
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That looks like gold rings. The "S" on the safety is also gold.
Chris Goodwin
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I have been gone for a few days and you all have ran with this. I am beyond impressed with the knowledge. I stumbled on this site while researching my gun and found a previous post about the AB marking. I had to join. I am in IT and love soaking up knowledge. Anything else you find please post. I have learned a ton from this site. Thank you all for your posts. It helps me kinda bond with my Grandfather more as he has been gone for 25 years and learn a little about he had. He had a stroke in 77 and couldn't speak. So asking him questions about his various fire arms was hard. This discussion means a lot to me.
Chris Goodwin
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Chris, Welcome to the site. The expertise here is what attracted me 9 years ago. There are several knowledgeable persons on this board interested in French guns including two or three Europeans. And when we get curious about a subject we expand our knowledge as well. For instance, the Breuil's were a prominent barrel making family in Saint-Étienne and have been discussed regularly. it was FAB500 who detailed their divisions in that previous AB line but it somehow didn't register or stick, at least with me. I think we all have absorbed it now. We will continue to look for the gun maker "AB" and for the origin of those in-house quality marks.
Gene Williams
Last edited by Argo44; 01/18/25 04:59 PM.
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Thanks. I really appreciate it.
Chris Goodwin
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"England" on the top rib? Might this be a name? ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/scEcAQq.png) I had a double-take when looking at the barrels and thought they looked Damascus. But they must just be rusty steel. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/Emacwg2.jpg)
Last edited by Argo44; 01/18/25 04:58 PM.
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She needs a little TLC. It has been sitting in a closet for years. I plan on cleaning her up. I wondered if the England stamp was just made when it was maybe exported to England. Just spit balling.
Chris Goodwin
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Thanks. I will check them out.
Chris Goodwin
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Salut,
Auguste Blondeau, fabricant d'armes à Saint-Etienne, a déposé plusieurs brevets dans les années 20 pour une fermeture monobloc à serrage progressif de type "HELICE". Sur le canon droit de ce fusil on distingue les initiales J*B indiquant le canonnier Jean Breuil. Les pictogrammes qu'on retrouve sur les plats des canons sont des codes pour désigner la qualité des canons utilisés par le fabricant. La Manu utilisait ces codes pour désigner la qualité de ses canons en acier "HERCULE".
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So did fabricant d'armes Auguste Blondeau adopt the trademark >>HELICE<< or file for protection of the name?
Serbus,
Raimey rse
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A translation of Fab’s post:
Hello,
Auguste Blondeau, a weapons manufacturer in Saint-Etienne, filed several patents in the 1920s for a "HELICE" type one-piece closure.
On the right barrel of this shotgun we distinguish the initials J*B indicating the barrel maker Jean Breuil.
The pictograms found on the barrel flats are codes to designate the quality of the barrels used by the manufacturer.
The Manu used these codes to designate the quality of its "HERCULE" steel barrels.
Fab Un grand merci pour votre patience et vos précieuses contributions sur ce site.
Sinceres salutations Ted
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Looks like “Solidgrip”.
Hey, exactly what you want in a closure and locking system, no?
Best, Ted
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A translation of Fab’s post:
Hello,
Auguste Blondeau, a weapons manufacturer in Saint-Etienne, filed several patents in the 1920s for a "HELICE" type one-piece closure.
On the right barrel of this shotgun we distinguish the initials J*B indicating the barrel maker Jean Breuil.
The pictograms found on the barrel flats are codes to designate the quality of the barrels used by the manufacturer.
The Manu used these codes to designate the quality of its "HERCULE" steel barrels.
Fab Un grand merci pour votre patience et vos précieuses contributions sur ce site.
Sinceres salutations Ted C'est toujours un plaisir. Je rajoute que dans les années 30, il semblerait que Blondeau fabriquait ses propres canons.
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Here is one of the Crowned "AB" marks from our guns and the one crowned "BA" from a Breuil-Aulagnier. There could be a connection but doubtful given no "BA" on the key: ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/oQqt0cv.png) ![[Linked Image from i.goopics.net]](https://i.goopics.net/800/9ikhwi.jpg) Salut Argo Sur le lien de Naturabuy que je viens de poster, on retrouve ce même poinçon AB couronné sur le canon.
Last edited by fab500; 01/25/25 09:53 AM.
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,426 Likes: 406
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,426 Likes: 406 |
Marci Fab, Je savais qu'il fallait attendre que tu clarifies les choses. To sum up about Chris' inherited gun: It is a French 12 gauge made in Saint-Étienne by Auguste Blondeau probably in the 1930's. It is double proofed at the proof house of Saint-Étienne. It has three crossed fronds on the barrel flats which are an indication of barrel quality. These barrels were probably made by Blondeau himself and this particular mark is likely a Blondeau quality mark copying but slightly different from similar barrel quality marks used by Jean Breuil. The barrel was honed by C.S (unknown). It has a Verney-Caron type top key/lock, 65 mm chambers (2 1/2"), probably the standard French 27.5" barrels. It may be a model classified as "England." Another gun enthusiast on Passionlachasse also commented on "AB" being Auguste Blondeau and posted these two pictures. (Note "quadruple verrou" - quadruple lock - which looks to be a version of Verney Caron...patented by Blondeau as "Solidgripp" as FAB mentioned. Don't know what is the difference). ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/y9i2Ksn.png) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/o7uWfgR.png) FAB also commented that "Canon Prima" was a Jean Breuil trademark. This I'm not at all sure of. There were several guns pictured above and I'm not sure to which of them FAB was referring. I believe rather that "Canon Prima" is an Auguste Blondeau mark and therefore the "crossed plumes" are AB quality marks. The example FAB posted from naturabuy is below. It has the AB under crown mark, the "crossed feathers" barrel quality mark, and "Canon Prima") ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/F0FFZr5.png) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/wZB8VsS.png)
Last edited by Argo44; 01/27/25 07:22 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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1 member likes this:
Ted Schefelbein |
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,361 Likes: 276
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,361 Likes: 276 |
Nice, lovely sleuthing on all fronts, fronds & all.....
Serbus,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,361 Likes: 276
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,361 Likes: 276 |
Now, on to how >>England<< became a Modell by Auguste Blondeau.
Serbus,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,426 Likes: 406
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,426 Likes: 406 |
As a final comment, Chris's gun SN 2309 looks to have pre-dated the AB 4 lock patent "Solidgripp" which could further help date the gun. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/bO13kst.png)
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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