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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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First response from Passionlachasse is that the crossed palms w/o crown on the barrel flats are an early Jean Breuil internal mark of quality. Working on getting dates. https://www.passionlachasse.com/t40...e-ab-et-un-poincon-problematique#1057260Le premier canons Jean Breuil, gage de qualité
Last edited by Argo44; 01/16/25 02:39 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Capital Effort Argo44. I assume you quizzed them on the >>AB<< trademark also?
Serbus,
Raimey rse
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Yep. . .only one response...not much. Nous avons un petit problème ici en Amérique. Nous avons retrouvé plusieurs fusils de chasse stéphanois fabriqués par "AB" probablement au milieu des années 1920. Il y a un poinçon sur les plats de canon qui est les palmes croisées stéphanoises mais sans la couronne. Quelqu'un peut-il identifier le fabricant "AB"? Que signifient les palmes croisées sans couronne? Merci. Gene Williams, McLean, VirginiaRegarde ici pour les poinçons, super article https://jgsn-tir.e-monsite.com/medias/files/poincons-sur-les-armes.pdf Le premier canons Jean Breuil, gage de qualité
Merci. Je connais le poincon de la plupart des pays. Mais malheureusement l'article n'aborde pas les palmiers saint-étiennes sans couronne. Je suppose qu'il s'agit d'une sorte de marques d'épreuve "internes". Mais qui était autorisé à les tamponner et à quelles dates ?
Voila mon comprehension de l''histoire Breuil: Claude Breuil, fils et successeur de la canonnerie Breuil-Aulagnier. Cette canonnerie, fondée par Charles Breuil et Geneviève Marie Aulagnier, fut rachetée en 1957 par Chapuis. Jean Breuil a travaillé chez son cousin Charles Breuil pendant une petite période. Puis il créa sa propre canonnerie en 1913. Celle-ci fut rachetée en 1963 par Verney-Carron.
Apparemment, les dimensions de la chambre à Saint-Étienne ont changé vers 1924, passant de cm à mm. Cela semblerait dater ces armes d'après 1924.
Last edited by Argo44; 01/16/25 06:20 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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There is a post on Passionlachasse that suggests the AB might be Breuil-Aulagnier. Here is why I think this is doubtful. Here is a collage of 8 Breuil-Aulagnier barrels. On none of these guns is there a BA or AB on the Key. There are stamps on the barrels for "Breuil-Aulagnier"..."C.Breuil"...."BA"....."CA." There is one stamp "BA" with a crown over it in an oval which might be related to our AB above but doubtful. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/3P1sUhU.png)
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Here is one of the Crowned "AB" marks from our guns and the one crowned "BA" from a Breuil-Aulagnier. There could be a connection but doubtful given no "BA" on the key: ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/oQqt0cv.png)
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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there have been many discussions regarding the maker's marks on french guns - the sometimes grandiose descriptions of the "superior steel", "perfected chokes", and guaranteed this-and-that.
i am of the opinion that the "fronds" stamped on the barrel flats are purely an in-house item....i have never seen any reference that would suggest there are established standards to govern the usage of those stamps - and as such, i view them as maker's declaration of greater and lesser quality of their own products. the differing (but similar) stamps pictured in this thread, would seem to indicate they are not an official stamp - and i wonder if they should be considered to be a valid means of comparison between one maker and another? just about every maker marketed french gun seems to display some sort of emblem that connotes relative quality; these fronds, swallows, hares, the poincoins (?) on darnes (where the number of quality stampings have some correlation to the grade number of the gun - i don't recall exactly what, maybe ted will happen by and explain).
another thought that has crossed my mind, has to do with placement of the various stampings. i suspect that the only stamps applied by the government proof houses are on the tubes themselves - always at bdc on each tube slightly forward of the flats, sometimes accompanied by non-government markings, customarily directly connected to the barrel maker. i have come to wonder if the barrel flats are exclusively the playgrounds of the gun maker...i.e. of my 4 manu guns, i have 2 that fall within the period when mf did in-house proofing. thanks to fab500's posting a few years back, we know the arrow-thru-the-circle stamp is equivalent to the st.ettienne/paris stamp - but the mf marks are always (?) on the flats...not on the tubes. and, on the made for market guns - the usual placement of the retailer's name on the bottom metal - i don't recall seeing those adornments of the flats.
as usual with these guns, a discussion tends to leave us with more questions than answers.
best regards, tom
"it's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." lewis carroll, Alice in Wonderland
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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I agree that the crossed palm fronds without a crown are indeed some sort of in-house mark of quality as one poster on Passionlachasse mentioned. But for whom? There are no barrel maker marks on the three AB guns or on the MF gun so presumably it might have been the AB fabricator who placed them on the AB guns and on the MF gun either MF or the unknown barrel maker (Jean Breuil according to the Passionlachasse poster). There looks be two types..the more "feathery" ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/aH53Hgj.png) and the ones that closely resemble those found on the 1913 Manufrance. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/mtw4sHd.png) As Tom mentioned who put them there ramains an outstanding question. They certainly are not on most French guns from the period. For now I'll assume that the bottom crossed fronds were indeed Jean Breuil in-house marks of quality (even if his name is not on the barrels) as the poster opined. As for the top ones.....can't say. As for dates....the three AB guns are most likely post-1924 if our understanding of the CM/MM changeover in Saint-Étienne is correct. The Manufrance is dated to c1913 per FAB500 but he noted the lightening bolt MF proof mark - begun in 1924....he could not explain the dichotomy. Gene
Last edited by Argo44; 01/17/25 04:50 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Boxlock
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Boxlock
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That looks like gold rings. The "S" on the safety is also gold.
Chris Goodwin
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Boxlock
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Boxlock
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I have been gone for a few days and you all have ran with this. I am beyond impressed with the knowledge. I stumbled on this site while researching my gun and found a previous post about the AB marking. I had to join. I am in IT and love soaking up knowledge. Anything else you find please post. I have learned a ton from this site. Thank you all for your posts. It helps me kinda bond with my Grandfather more as he has been gone for 25 years and learn a little about he had. He had a stroke in 77 and couldn't speak. So asking him questions about his various fire arms was hard. This discussion means a lot to me.
Chris Goodwin
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Chris, Welcome to the site. The expertise here is what attracted me 9 years ago. There are several knowledgeable persons on this board interested in French guns including two or three Europeans. And when we get curious about a subject we expand our knowledge as well. For instance, the Breuil's were a prominent barrel making family in Saint-Étienne and have been discussed regularly. it was FAB500 who detailed their divisions in that previous AB line but it somehow didn't register or stick, at least with me. I think we all have absorbed it now. We will continue to look for the gun maker "AB" and for the origin of those in-house quality marks.
Gene Williams
Last edited by Argo44; 01/18/25 04:59 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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