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Joined: Apr 2010
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 694 Likes: 78 |
An unusual 24ga W. Collath Double Rifle I am always attracted to unusual and unique double rifles, and this one sure fits the bill. This Collath, like the Dreyse 11mm I posted earlier, also comes from Europe. The high grade features of this Collath double rifle would indicates it must have been made for a customer that could afford the very best. I will have this double rifle in hand some time next week and I will post additional pictures then. In the mean time, the following pictures came from the seller's post. Searching the internet shows several Collath SxS shotguns and drillings, but this was the only double rifle found. The fact that its 24 gauge will make loading and regulation a challenge. The bore size of a 24 gauge shotgun is 0.579 inches in diameter. A paradox style bullet mold will be ordered for 24 gauge, and a regulating load will be developed. This Collath's function is is very interesting. When the under-lever beneath the forearm is rotated, a cam pulls the barrel assembly forward. From this forward position, the barrels can be tipped down for loading, just like a conventional break-action double. (like this link shows) https://i697.photobucket.com/a...sidejoseDSCN0777.jpgAny additional information about W. Collath, and your comments, are most welcome. https://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/COLLATH-00.jpg![[Linked Image from buckstix.com]](https://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/COLLATH-00.jpg)
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,361 Likes: 276 |
I am curious if the bore diameter was actually measured?
Teschner - Collath sporting arms are quite novel with their eccentric breech. Georg Teschner(Johann Gottlieb Teschner) founded the concern in 1838(the same year Wilhelm Collath(Carl Wilhelm Theodor Collath) was born) and brought it thru the pinfire age I believe. Wilhelm Collath found gainful employment @ Teschner in 1859. And the story continues from there. There was a satellite stamping station or satellite proof facility @ the Teschner - Collath concern(later W. Collath & Sohne) & they had their own bore gauges:
0 = 10 gauge 1 = 12 gauge 3 = 14 gauge 4 = 16 gauge 5 = 18 gauge 6 = 20 gauge 7 = 24 gauge 8 = 28 gauge
I have seen a similar one stamped No 5660 Cal. 3 11/15?
Serbus,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Nov 2021
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 443 Likes: 143 |
You never mention but is this truly a rifle or a Paradox type? I am asking for a couple of reasons. One is that, as mentioned, Collath made a number of proprietary chamberings. I once owned the highest grade Collath I have ever seen. It was much older than yours appears and much more ornate and intricately designed, such as longitudinal reinforcing ribs machined into the back third of the Damascus barrels and gold wire inlays over the entire rear of the barrels and action. I bought it for very little because the barrels were 14 gauge and appeared to have chambers bored out to 12 gauge. I found out later that it was a propriety Collath chambering, similar to the Egyption Martini.
The other reason I asked is that it is possible that if the barrels are truly rifled it may be simply chambered in .577 Snyder. It was relatively common for a while to have doubles made in this caliber and I have seen a few for sale in the last year. It is very easy to confuse the two without careful measurement. I would certainly consider this before thinking of an odd 24 gauge paradox type gun. Almost everyone who shoots the Snyder uses 24 ga brass cases, and often they will chamber as is in a worn Snyder chamber. The first thing I would try is a 24 ga brass case and then a Snyder cartridge. For simplicity you may want to start loading with a properly sized lead ball. If the barrel is the proper diameter a Snyder bullet can be used. Regulation may be tough but load development should amount to just looking up some recommended Snyder handloads no matter what the actual chamber since for all practical purposes they are the same.
I have an early commercial Snyder with a tight spec barrel and it will not accept a 24 ga case, but most will. If the 24ga case will chamber, simply fireform a few to the chambers, trim them based on the obvious neck position and load a few up. Measure the fireformed case to determine the actual ID.
Last edited by AGS; 01/12/25 01:24 PM.
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Joined: Nov 2021
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2021
Posts: 443 Likes: 143 |
Forgot to mention that Collath also made an extensive line of shotgun gauge ball cartridges. I not long ago bought a Sauer underlever hammer gun that was a Cape Gun type. The left barrel was a normal 16 ga shotgun and the right barrel was a 20 ga chamber with a rifled barrel the had the groove diameter of 16 bore and the bore diameter of a 20 gauge. I finally realized that they had used a set of 16 gauge rough tubes and bored the left barrel to 16 ga and the right barrel to 20 ga bore and then rifled it to a groove diameter of near 16 ga diameter. The chambers were made to several lengths in each ga and the one I had was made for a 1-5/8" chamber length. One thing this did is yield a barrel with much more barrel thickness than would be present in a shotgun barrel of standard configuration or with a standard Paradox barrel. I tried a couple of cast balls of varying diameter until I found one the pushed through easily and filled the grooves completely.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 694 Likes: 78 |
Hello AGS, thanks for the reply.
I load for both the 577 snider and 24 gauge. Both barrels of the Collath are full length rifled with a variation of paper-patch rifling. I will do a chamber cast when I get the double in hand next week.
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Joined: Apr 2010
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2010
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Hello ... I got the double rifle in hand today. Its in spectacular condition. But, now I'm really confused as to the caliber. I guess the "CAL 3 24" marking must stand for 3" 24 gauge. But the chamber cast is identical to 600 NE, except with a thinner and smaller dia rim. Perhaps a 600 bpe? any suggestions? https://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/24ga-cast-000.jpg![[Linked Image from buckstix.com]](https://www.buckstix.com/buckpics/24ga-cast-000.jpg)
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Joined: Jul 2012
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,666 Likes: 263 |
Collath advertised double rifles in common and Express cartridges but also advertised that upon request would make one in any domestic (German) or foreign cartridge. Therefore, the rifle could be chambered for practically any cartridge, including those that would be nominally the same cartridge but would have differing chamber dimensions depending on whether brass or paper cases were to be used (this could also affect rim diameter/thickness). Diameter of a bullet to be used in a paper case cartridge could differ from the diameter of the diameter of a bullet intended for the same nominal cartridge but intended for use in a brass case. Since you have discovered an apparent discrepancy in chamber diameter vs bore diameter, this might be the cause. With the chamber cast (I'm guessing it is long enough to show bore and groove diameters) I'm sure you can sort this out, I can't. Mike
Last edited by Der Ami; 01/20/25 09:49 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,361 Likes: 276 |
Might you pleasure us with some fotos of the proofmarks, if any?
Collath - Teschner's eccentric tipping breech platform was / is limited to lower pressure cartridges, so I don't think I would necessarily associate this 24 bore platform to the 600 NE, unless the 600NE pressure was tolerable. Who knows, Collath - Teschner may have made such ammo? So I would check their ammo line? Last, 24 bores seem to gravitate to the Austro-Hungarian Empire and maybe a skosh further East. Who would have ordered such a 24 bore chambering in an eccentric tipping breech platform and what was the desired use, i.e. what quarry was he chasing? The spectacular condition of the 24 bore DR is probably due to the fact that when the original custodian ignited his stash / lot of 24 bore cartridges, additional ammo was scarce at Best.
Serbus,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 143 Likes: 9
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 143 Likes: 9 |
There is no need to speculate about .600 NE. The early breech loading hunting rifles used cartridges of various types (pinfire, Lancaster, Teschner, Dreyse, whatever more), brass or cardboard hulls of various length. 24 gauge was a common caliber, bullets were stubby things with a rounded head (in German "Katzenkopf-Geschoss), ballistics similar to, but possibly inferior to muzzleloaders. Used for hunting deer, wild boar etc in Germany, also Austria etc. Gravitation to the East?? All these constructs soon became obsolete with the development of BPE cartidges and then (for Germany) with the 11,15x60R in 1871. And these again were obsolete by 1888. These were expensive times for hunters - every 10 or 15 years your up-to-date equipment was thoroughly obsolete.
Nothing excentric about Teschner-Collath guns (except the locking principle). They were produced until WWII, chambered for nitro cartridges, and obviously plenty strong.
fuhrmann
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 11,361 Likes: 276
Sidelock
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Sidelock
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fuhrmann:
You can define the subject platform as stout as you fancy, but you are not going to stuff a 600 Nitro Express round n the chamber, ignite it & get favourable results. Just not going to happen.
Almost daily I tote a 24 Bore and 500 Express Biks made in Ferlach in 1911. Now who in the world in 1911 orders a 500 Express in 1911, less some eccentric, possibly Bohemian? The Borovlje in Ferlach made the Lefuša and subsequent hammergun platforms with metal buttplates for thrashing game well past WWI as their clients too held on to the past or were difficult to convert / convince of the new fangled platforms. 24 ammo is quite common as Italy must be lush with 24 bores, but they are not 3". But whomever ordered the 24 bore X 500 Express, of which I am a custodian, in 1911 had a specific purpose.
I am confident that a Jäger @ the Diana Hunt Club in Berlin didn't order the subject hammerless Collath 24 Bore DR to dispatch boars. Rather the Collath client had some purpose for the 3" chambering. Why not 40mm? What did the extra length out to 3" get you? Had it been a purpose of common nature, we would all be custodians of 3" 24 Bores?
Now you are most correct on the evolution of hunting technology and I am not sure that the average Jäger could afford the subject hammerless Collath platform, much less the ammo.
Serbus,
Raimey rse
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