S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
28
|
|
|
1 members (oskar),
138
guests, and
4
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums10
Topics39,398
Posts556,246
Members14,511
|
Most Online1,344 Apr 29th, 2024
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 352 Likes: 97
Sidelock
|
OP
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 352 Likes: 97 |
I received this in my Dickson newsletter.
Lead in Ammunition Restriction for UK
In 2021 the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) tasked the Health and Safety executive (HSE) to examine the use of lead in ammunition. After a series of public consultations and direct communication, HSE have now issued their ‘Final Opinion’. The Final Opinion is, in parallel, now presented to the Secretary of State for DEFRA as the ‘appropriate authority’ for action. He now has 3 months to take action, most likely the production of a statutory instrument to present to Parliament. Without objection, this then becomes law.
Outline statement:
Lead Shot
• The use of lead shot for live quarry shooting would be prohibited.
• The use of lead shot for target shooting would be prohibited. However, a derogation will allow a for a number of competitive athletes on British Shooting lists to continue shooting lead shot for the purposes of international competition and training.
• The placing on the market of lead shot for target shooting would be prohibited. However, a derogation will allow for supply to competitive athletes.
• 5 year transition for all above.
With a fine gun on his arm, a man becomes a sporting gentleman, both on the field and off.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,188 Likes: 408
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,188 Likes: 408 |
Such unadulterated bullsh/t. Serves no one and does nothing of benefit. Idiots. JR
Be strong, be of good courage. God bless America, long live the Republic.
|
2 members like this:
Stanton Hillis, keith |
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 665 Likes: 9
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 665 Likes: 9 |
I suppose the upside is more soft-tubed British guns will be flowing to this side of the pond. Stand by for more low cost but high quality 12ga guns (often 2.5 inch) incoming!
Last edited by Grouse Guy; 01/08/25 07:36 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,568 Likes: 553
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,568 Likes: 553 |
Such unadulterated bullsh/t. Serves no one and does nothing of benefit. Idiots. JR All depends upon your perspective John. For the Liberal Left anti-gun forces, this is another victory in their relentless fight to end the shooting sports, and private gun ownership. This is purely political.. and it is also 100% on-topic because it directly affects the availability of suitable, effective, and affordable ammunition for vintage Double Guns. But don't mention that here, or those who support the anti-gun Democrats who push for similar restrictions in the U.S. will move heaven and earth to silence and censor you, or ban you completely.
The"Big Tent" of Gun owners is a Big Fraud... to give cover to fools who vote for Anti-gunners.
|
1 member likes this:
greener4me |
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,568 Likes: 553
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,568 Likes: 553 |
I suppose the upside is more soft-tubed British guns will be flowing to this side of the pond. Stand by for more low cost but high quality 12ga guns (often 2.5 inch) incoming! I wonder what our UK members will think of this sentiment??? It's rather selfish and crude... something like feeling that it would be great to visit Ukraine after the war ends... because so many of their men have been killed, and that means more single women will be available. Of course, if our UK members supported and voted for the anti-gunners who screwed them, as many Liberal gun owners do here, then I'd have to say Elections Have Consequences, and they got what they deserve. I can only hope they are smarter than several short-sighted gun owners right here.
The"Big Tent" of Gun owners is a Big Fraud... to give cover to fools who vote for Anti-gunners.
|
1 member likes this:
John Roberts |
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,848 Likes: 621
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,848 Likes: 621 |
Do these idiots know how many places in that nation are natural deposits of lead? Pointless decision. This is like deciding wind will be the only source of electric and then find out that you need fossil fuel to make everything needed for wind. Deciding to do it anyway and refuse the use of oil, gas or coal. It is easy too to take away other people property, or change the rules so it has no value, or just can not be used. And by their limited selection of exemptions, they disarm those few in a position to point out their stupidity.
For us this means an already soft double market is about to free fall, again. I have bought several AYA number 4's for less than $300.00 in 90+%. I doubt they will cost much over $200.00 now and those are semi steel friendly. Older guns do not stand a chance I am afraid. More to the trash bin than the auction house. If the markets tanks few will bother. And non ejector guns are a hard sell already at any price. Those you will be able to buy in lots of five at Holt's for pennies. I wish I was 25 years younger so I could buy several hundred and set it as my personal challenge to wear them all out shooting them.
|
2 members like this:
David Williamson, Stanton Hillis |
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 611 Likes: 37
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 611 Likes: 37 |
It is mighty frustrating, but we are hoisted with this ridiculous legislation here in the the UK, so will just have to get on with it. For myself, most of my shooting is driven game at partridge and pheasant; I shall not be using steel in any of my guns. I do not believe it has the same lethality as lead. Besides, my old girls were made for lead cartridges. I shall be using the Bioammo Blue Diggory writes about here: https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/blue-is-the-colour Note that 2 1/2" cases are now available. Some of my shooting friends have started using these cartridges in their old British guns and report back most favourably. I still have my usual lead cartridges to get through before I begin using the Blue. I do not feel that Holts is about to be flooded with masses of old British shotguns going for a song and ripe for export to North America, though! Sure, there have been more such guns coming to auction but that is generally because the younger generation of game shooters have been bought up and trained using O/U rather than SxS. They are not as sentimental as my generation of baby boomers about using their fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers guns, as I have been fortunate to do. When I decide to stop shooting I shall, as things stand at the moment, be selling my guns because none of my four children have shared my passion, despite all being introduced to it at a young age; just the way it goes, sometimes. Tim
|
2 members like this:
Parabola, HistoricBore |
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,848 Likes: 621
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,848 Likes: 621 |
"I do not feel that Holts is about to be flooded with masses of old British shotguns going for a song and ripe for export to North America, though!"
If they can not be shot why would they not head to the only market for them? If they hold no value to shoot what are they then? An asset to sell, to get some value out of, or a relic to keep with little real interest in ever using. I have dealt with these issues with antiques and fine china from family estates. Nobody wants them, only some of the value. Your fellow shooters are facing aging out of shooting and now having their guns made almost impossible to shoot, at the same time. Once they pass their guns will need to be passed on to heirs with no interest in them, made worse because they can not even use them at all. I know they are working on lower pressure steel shot loads in 2 1/2" but they are only of interest to those willing to shoot. Few young people are, fewer with a double. Falling generational interest as you pointed out has already decreased demand. Making it harder will decrease it further. Supply and demand with decreasing demand gaining every day.
|
1 member likes this:
John Roberts |
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 86 Likes: 82
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 86 Likes: 82 |
Yes, the steel revolution is coming.
But the issue has nothing to do with party politics - all the parties support this. The 'science' of lead has overwhelmed common sense, and is coming in across Europe as well. Being 76 means that I am less worried about this than others. The five year transition will cover most of my future shooting.
But there are now some standard pressure iron shot loads in 2.5" cartridges that are not too bad, providing that one has no more than half choke.
Someone at our shoot lunch yesterday was telling us of his 30 year old son selling his boxlock 12 bore side-by-side back to the gunshop that supplied it. He bought it for £1200 / $1500 three years ago. They gave him 50 cartridges for it.... Ouch!
HB
|
1 member likes this:
Parabola |
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 1,073 Likes: 487
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 1,073 Likes: 487 |
I know cartridges are expensive but I would have told that gunshop where they could put their 50 cartridges- base first.
The legislation is a solution to a non-existent problem, but is inevitable in the current situation.
At least (fingers crossed) the current proposals spare .22 rimfire lead ammunition and lead air gun pellets for pest control for lack of viable alternatives.
In centre fire hunting ammunition non-lead expanding bullets are available but in many calibres will be a re-loading only proposition.
For shotguns Bismuth is almost as good as lead, but monstrously expressive.
Getting satisfactory .410 ammunition is going to be a real problem.
Last edited by Parabola; 01/10/25 04:56 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 611 Likes: 37
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 611 Likes: 37 |
If they can not be shot why would they not head to the only market for them? If they hold no value to shoot what are they then? Jon, a lot of folk seem to be under the impression that old British guns are unable to take steel shot. This is not the case at all. The guns can be shot using steel, provided they have half choke or less constriction and are otherwise safe to use. It would be incorrect to think that all old Brit SxS guns can not be shot. It is still flawed legislation and there is no proven case of lead poisoning to humans from shot. I understand the wetlands argument against lead, but not that against other game shooting. Of course, the supermarkets have all now said they don't want the terrible lead - which apparently kills so many people each year; please show me the proof - in the game that they pretty consistently fail to carry on their shelves anyway. Apparently the non-shooting chairman of a well known national supermarket brand was invited to a days shooting to spectate and learn about how well the game was handled. All went well until the end of the first drive and the pickers-up sent their dogs off to retrieve the fallen game. He was aghast. 'You mean the dogs pick the birds up in their mouths? And then carry it back to you?' He stomped off in disgust, not to be seen again, muttering something about not in my shops! Tim
|
1 member likes this:
Parabola |
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,632 Likes: 301
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,632 Likes: 301 |
....a lot of folk seem to be under the impression that old British guns are unable to take steel shot. This is not the case at all. The guns can be shot using steel, provided they have half choke or less constriction and are otherwise safe to use. It would be incorrect to think that all old Brit SxS guns can not be shot.
It is still flawed legislation....
Tim Steel shot in the US is very common, but to be effective it is fired at significantly higher velocity and shot charge volume, than lead. Is there any concern that the pressures required, would exceed proof? Is steel used at a less effective pattern density and velocity in the UK? Just curious.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,276 Likes: 1123
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,276 Likes: 1123 |
Craig, Steel in England comes in two different levels of proof application: ![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/FshXgtg/IMG-0585.jpg) Guns that have the current version of Nitro Proof (revised early 2000s, I’m thinking, one of the English guys will straighten me out if I’m off) are OK with the “Standard Loading”, guns with the ace of clubs looking thing, or marked “Steel Shot”, can use the “High Performance” steel loading. That load is closer to what is on the shelf here in the US. I have an issue calling any steel loading high performance. The steel shot stamp would seem to be easy to fake, to me. YMMV. Best, Ted
|
2 members like this:
Parabola, craigd |
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,848 Likes: 621
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,848 Likes: 621 |
I suspect your standard steel shot will be about what we had 40 years ago when steel shot first became a thing here. It was too slow. 1200 fps steel might be OK for targets. No wounded clay target ever suffered a needless, lingering death. But I have seen countless ducks hit with steel in close range, fly off and drop dead, in flight a hundred or more yards from where they were hit. And the chance of recovery, where I hunt at those ranges, is somewhere between no chance in Hell and never in a thousand years. Plus I am sure others died after being shot without me seeing them drop. I refuse to shoot standard velocity steel at any game. If you look at the energy retained for a pellet at range and you will understand. If you did not hit a vital organ or break a wing it just failed to do the job.
I use Bismuth instead. You do not use that many shell hunting that you can not afford a box or two. And the birds deserve it.
|
4 members like this:
John Roberts, LGF, Stanton Hillis, Parabola |
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 28 Likes: 1
Boxlock
|
Boxlock
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 28 Likes: 1 |
I read the article on Bioammo Blue and it was definitely interesting. Hopefully the cost can be brought down. My only concern was the velocities listed for the given shot sizes. Most of my reloads run up to 1200 fps but most are slower. The loads I read up on all seemed to be well over 1300 fps, some very close to 1400. Looking at the wads I wouldn't expect much cushioning. I have to wonder about the "felt" recoil" and it's effect, if any, on a light game gun's wood over time.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,196 Likes: 139
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,196 Likes: 139 |
UK government bans lead shot but Muslims will still be allowed to rape young British girls without consequences. My heart goes out to our law abiding British cousins and their once great country. Very sad
|
5 members like this:
canvasback, Stanton Hillis, greener4me, Imperdix, John Roberts |
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,568 Likes: 553
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,568 Likes: 553 |
Yes, the steel revolution is coming.
But the issue has nothing to do with party politics - all the parties support this. The 'science' of lead has overwhelmed common sense, and is coming in across Europe as well. Being 76 means that I am less worried about this than others. The five year transition will cover most of my future shooting. I would be interested in seeing some proof or data to prove the statement that the UK Lead Ammo Ban has nothing to do with Party Politics. From the news we get here, it seems evident that when anti-gun laws, ammo bans, or anti-hunting efforts are attempted or implemented in the U.S.A., the U.K., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc., those attacks on Gun Ownership and the Shooting Sports are virtually always done by the Liberal Left. Just before leaving office, Anti-gun Democrat Barack Obama's Interior Department tried to ban lead ammunition on lands managed by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service And when we see things like the U.S. Firearms Owners Protection Act, the reversal of the Clinton Assault Weapons Ban, or the repeal of the Canadian Long Gun Registry, those victories come through the efforts of Pro-gun rights Conservatives. Of course, the wins we have also take a lot of backing from firearms owners, hunters, and organizations like the NRA, who are willing to make the effort to fight back. Rolling over and accepting these attacks as inevitable will never win anything, and only encourage more of the same. So if all Political Parties in the U.K. (or elsewhere) are complicit in infringing upon the rights of gun owners, then it seems to me that it would be foolish for gun owners to continue to support them in any way. When my former U.S. Senator began siding with anti-gunners on restrictions of semi-automatic rifles, I voiced my displeasure to his office, stopped voting for him, and campaigned against him. Politicians are supposed to work for us... not the other way around. I tend to generalize about the foolishness of gun owners in the U.S.A. voting for Democrats, because they virtually all stick together on the issue. There was a time when I was too young to vote that Democrats like Senator John Dingell of Michigan were pro-2nd Amendment. He even served on the NRA Board of Directors. Those days seem to be long gone. His daughter Debbie Dingell is now a Liberal Democrat Senator from Michigan, and she is quite anti-gun. Michigan Gun Owners would be insane to reward her with their support.
The"Big Tent" of Gun owners is a Big Fraud... to give cover to fools who vote for Anti-gunners.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 288 Likes: 68
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 288 Likes: 68 |
Little Britain ! Like all great countries and empires ,it rose and now is falling into history.....all caused by its own occupants.
|
3 members like this:
eeb, greener4me, Ted Schefelbein |
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,276 Likes: 1123
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,276 Likes: 1123 |
1200FPS steel would probably be OK for ruffed grouse and American woodcock, if you have a solid retriever along with. I won’t hunt wild pheasants with any form of steel.
Really hopeful I’m not cornered on that decision in the years I’ve got left to hunt. Just OK isn’t really what I’m after.
Best, Ted
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,612 Likes: 384
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,612 Likes: 384 |
CIP 12g 50mm, 60mm, 65mm, and 70mm “Standard Proof” lead or steel (limited to no larger than 3.25 mm / U.S. No. 4s and max. fps 1,300) Numbers are transducer BAR converted to PSI. Maximum Average (SERVICE) Pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi; Maximum Statistical Individual Pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi Mean PROOF Pressure 930 BAR = 13,489 psi (The original 1984 chart, which was revised in 1990, indicates 12g PROOF 960 BAR = 13,924 psi. The number was revised to 930 BAR) 12g “High performance/Superior Proof” (and 3” & 3 1/2”) Maximum Average (Service) Pressure 1050 BAR = 15,229 psi Maximum Statistical Individual Pressure 1200 BAR = 17,405 psi Magnum proof 1320 BAR = 19,145 psi Magnum proof was originally 1370 BAR but was lowered to 1320 about 2006.12g STEEL regulations: the barrels carry the High Performance Steel Fleur de Lys stamp that Ted posted and are marked “Steel Shot” Gamebore ![[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Proof-Marks/i-Bk49SgD/0/K4BJ6D2SrD229ss5ZCqJrLJwCNnVgn29HtLkw7d5b/M/Steel%20shot%20shell%20Gamebore-M.png) Shell box warning ![[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]](https://photos.smugmug.com/Proof-Marks/i-23TGgDB/0/Lv4hH2mpLWgC8Dm4bvLRcJsZrBWmVLSt4wjRV4VxW/M/Steel%20shell%20box%20warning-M.png)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,276 Likes: 1123
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,276 Likes: 1123 |
Tempering any thrill I could have for being forced to shoot steel at everything I hunt, are the memories of several Browning A5 barrels from my youth, bulged from the use of heavy loads of number 2 lead shot and/or some form of buckshot.
This was a solid decade before anyone was talking about steel shot.
The guns were looked to at Ahlman’s, and pronounced fit for service with no work being performed.
I thought, then and now, differently.
The whims of time and use leave me with further doubts about the suitability of a gun proofed in England, circa 1954 to use steel shot loads of any type. There has been plenty of opportunity for those tubes to be honed, blued, and rusted under and between the ribs.
Best, Ted
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,602 Likes: 120
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,602 Likes: 120 |
Just more BS. If you are my age, 70. You can remember when lead was in the paint. They decided to take lead out as they say it was dangerous. Said kids were eating it. I can not remember any of my friend eating it or myself. Can any of you remember reading about any kid who died eating paint? Not me. Also all our pipes in the basement when I lived in PA were wrapped in asbestos. My grandmothers house had them too. She lived until 98.
Because of all these government rules and regulations do you feel safer now that you did years ago?
JOhn Arrieta
John Boyd Quality Arms Inc Houston, TX 713-818-2971
|
2 members like this:
Stanton Hillis, Ted Schefelbein |
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,632 Likes: 301
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,632 Likes: 301 |
...British thoughts on steel shot in vintage doubles... Your research and references are always welcome, they still speak more to excluding and excuses, than to real solutions. Tungsten for mundane fishing weights to catch carp, may the US resist steering its future toward recent medal of freedom recipient visions.
|
1 member likes this:
Ted Schefelbein |
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 488 Likes: 71
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 488 Likes: 71 |
Quickly, before it gets locked. Skimming the Fox news link on lead in the 60's. I am, as are probably most here, children of the 60's. Not saying that lead exposure did not affect me. Likely it did as I am not running the world or even a major Corp! That said as I look at the current crop of up and comings who were not exposed to lead, (or mercury) in quantity, to what will will we blame their mental and or physical condition(s)?
Chief
|
1 member likes this:
greener4me |
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,276 Likes: 1123
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,276 Likes: 1123 |
Quickly, before it gets locked. Skimming the Fox news link on lead in the 60's. I am, as are probably most here, children of the 60's. Not saying that lead exposure did not affect me. Likely it did as I am not running the world or even a major Corp! That said as I look at the current crop of up and comings who were not exposed to lead, (or mercury) in quantity, to what will will we blame their mental and or physical condition(s)?
Chief The schools went to shit. Best, Ted _______________________________________________ Every class is either gender studies or climate crisis.
|
2 members like this:
Tom Shaffer, keith |
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 488 Likes: 71
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 488 Likes: 71 |
Likely true but not likely Ted! Perhaps growth hormones in the food chain? Widespread herbicide use? Video games? Anything but the schools!
Chief
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,276 Likes: 1123
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,276 Likes: 1123 |
Likely true but not likely Ted! Perhaps growth hormones in the food chain? Widespread herbicide use? Video games? Anything but the schools!
Chief Spend a week in a public school as an observer. They didn’t want me there, but, my kid was supposed to go there the following year, and I insisted. When it was over, I told them straight out he wouldn’t be attending, and sent him to a private school. What is happening in the public schools is criminal. Best, Ted
|
3 members like this:
Stanton Hillis, greener4me, keith |
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,568 Likes: 553
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,568 Likes: 553 |
Ingestion of lead shot in game, by humans, has nothing to do with the clearly established consequences of lead pipe contamination, lead in paint, and lead vapor inhalation from leaded gasoline, in children. Believing otherwise is sadly uninformed, and I wouldn't share your opinions with the mothers of your grandchildren. Of course not Preacher. Most of us understand that a few lead pellets that quickly pass through the digestive tract of a human is not the most bio-available form of lead. The same might be said about water from lead pipes that are heavily calcified. We also know that lead is toxic to some degree in any amount. But for the vast majority of Americans, and for hunters who consume meat shot with lead ammo, there is extremely little actual long term harm being done, as compared to a wide range of chemicals, drugs, and even foods. Be honest now, if you possibly can. And don't Cherry Pick or twist one thing I said, and evade the rest as you often do. In your medical practice, have you seen more deaths due to lead exposure, or excess consumption of sugar... or fats... or alcohol... or smoking? Would you care to quantify the differences for us? How much irreversible damage or death from lead poisoning have you actually seen in children? Have you gone lead free Preacher, or are you still flinging this deadly toxic element all over the place? Are you at all concerned that children and compromised adults might be exposed to the lead you fire while hunting or skeet shooting? You seem somehow invested in repeatedly posting links to how bad lead is. Why would you be a shill for banning lead, and not those other things that apparently are causing much more disease and mortality? Can you say that lead is a bigger problem for us than exposure to the phthalates in the plastics that have become ubiquitous in our lives? How about PFOA's on our frying pans and carpeting, or the BPA in our water bottles and food packaging? Is lead worse than RoundUp or other herbicides? Do more people die from lead exposure, or the giant blood clots and other side effects of Covid19 vaccines? How about commenting on deaths due to lead versus fentanyl overdoses due to Democrat Open Border policies??? Did you know that even with a great reduction in lead exposure in children thanks to getting lead out of paints, gasoline, plumbing, ammunition, and closure of smelters and mines, test scores among U.S. children have actually gone down over the past 30 years? Do you think those dropping test scores are due to lower lead exposure, or is our Public Education System doing more damage to children than lead? Did you know that Medical Mistakes are one of the leading causes of deaths in the U.S., killing as many as 251,000 people each year? That's way more than lead poisoning and firearms deaths of all kinds. And did you know that less than 10% of these frequently deadly medical errors are reported? Believing otherwise is sadly uninformed, and I wouldn't share your opinions with the mothers of your grandchildren. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28186008/https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/new...erious-harms-from-diagnostic-error-in-ushttps://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html
The"Big Tent" of Gun owners is a Big Fraud... to give cover to fools who vote for Anti-gunners.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 288 Likes: 68
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 288 Likes: 68 |
Quickly, before it gets locked. Skimming the Fox news link on lead in the 60's. I am, as are probably most here, children of the 60's. Not saying that lead exposure did not affect me. Likely it did as I am not running the world or even a major Corp! That said as I look at the current crop of up and comings who were not exposed to lead, (or mercury) in quantity, to what will will we blame their mental and or physical condition(s)?
Chief Over exposure to TV and latterly the Internet ! Lack of exposure to the real ,outdoors world. Exposure to recreational substances far more harmful than any lead residue !!!!
Last edited by Imperdix; 01/12/25 02:17 AM. Reason: add
|
2 members like this:
Karl Graebner, Stanton Hillis |
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,544 Likes: 465
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,544 Likes: 465 |
Likely true but not likely Ted! Perhaps growth hormones in the food chain? Widespread herbicide use? Video games? Anything but the schools!
Chief Spend a week in a public school as an observer. They didn’t want me there, but, my kid was supposed to go there the following year, and I insisted. When it was over, I told them straight out he wouldn’t be attending, and sent him to a private school. What is happening in the public schools is criminal. Best, Ted My ex volunteered at my son's public elementary school, working one on one helping kids to learn to read. So she spent lots of time observing the environment. We switched him to a private school starting in fifth grade. The public system is a disaster.
Last edited by canvasback; 01/12/25 11:25 AM.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,589 Likes: 36
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,589 Likes: 36 |
I will add a couple of real world first hand situations that have very good knowledge of related to experiences with lead. One was a fellow who painted cars indoors in his shop for a living just outside of New Market Va. His shop was located in his garage. His 4 year daughter lived in the bedroom located above the garage. She was fine and healthy until she wasn't. The fumes from the lead paint made it into her bedroom and she inhaled them every night. She got lead poisoning and essentially became autistic. She never got better. Needed full time nursing care.
The other person was a range instructor who volunteered to train incoming government contractors in Iraq after the invasion. Folks were flowing in left and right and they were not certified to carry sidearm and they had to be trained by the dozens. All the training was done underground with essentially no ventilation. He trained folks for 6 months every day. The students came in for a week. They were not affected in that short time, but he was. Got classic lead poisoning and received a full disability. The outcome is he had heavy metal in his body and there was no way to remediate it 100 percent. His thinking went to crap and he could not father children. I knew him before and after this happened. His world was gone.
The stuff is real. Now as the government always does is take things to extremes, and if everything looks like a nail, you just need a bigger hammer to make it work.
foxes rule
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 373 Likes: 121
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 373 Likes: 121 |
Both of those cases were because of prolonged high volume exposure. To me anyway, that’s much different than eating a pellet now and then. The same with goes with birds. But what’s it matter, climate change is gonna kill everyone in 10 years including birds
|
2 members like this:
Stanton Hillis, Imperdix |
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,568 Likes: 553
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,568 Likes: 553 |
I will add a couple of real world first hand situations that have very good knowledge of related to experiences with lead. One was a fellow who painted cars indoors in his shop for a living just outside of New Market Va. His shop was located in his garage. His 4 year daughter lived in the bedroom located above the garage. She was fine and healthy until she wasn't. The fumes from the lead paint made it into her bedroom and she inhaled them every night. She got lead poisoning and essentially became autistic. She never got better. Needed full time nursing care.
The other person was a range instructor who volunteered to train incoming government contractors in Iraq after the invasion. Folks were flowing in left and right and they were not certified to carry sidearm and they had to be trained by the dozens. All the training was done underground with essentially no ventilation. He trained folks for 6 months every day. The students came in for a week. They were not affected in that short time, but he was. Got classic lead poisoning and received a full disability. The outcome is he had heavy metal in his body and there was no way to remediate it 100 percent. His thinking went to crap and he could not father children. I knew him before and after this happened. His world was gone.
The stuff is real. Now as the government always does is take things to extremes, and if everything looks like a nail, you just need a bigger hammer to make it work. You have to really reach back in time here, because automotive paint containing lead was banned in 1978. It isn't much of an issue anymore, except for body-shop men who are exposed to sanding dust from vintage cars. The case involving the 4 yr. old girl is more of a case of parental stupidity and negligence. Even back when lead based paint was used on cars, there were plenty of warnings about proper ventilation, and there were also known risks from other components such as the V.O.C.'s in the paint and thinners. The girl's symptoms may have been due to other components of the paint, and not just lead. What is the mentality of a parent who would let their small child sleep in a bedroom that smelled like an automotive paint booth? Same goes for indoor shooting range air quality. It has been known for decades that there is risk of lead exposure in poorly ventilated indoor ranges. Most of that is due to the lead styphnate used in primers... a much more bio-available form of lead than either bullets or shot. Don't forget that lead styphnate primer compound is still used in virtually all of the ballistically inferior so-called non-tox ammo. I had an older friend who took a job as an electrician in a battery manufacturing plant. He told me spent lots of time repairing damage due to short circuits and grounds caused by an accumulation of very fine lead dust. He took it upon himself to start blowing this dust out of electrical cabinets and components with compressed air, and got the dust on his skin and in his lungs. He never used a respirator or Haz-Mat suit. This went on for a while until he began experiencing symptoms of lead poisoning. He underwent chelation therapy, and it took about a year to reduce his blood lead levels and alleviate his symptoms completely. He had known the risks, and exposed himself anyway. We are also cautioned about eating or drinking while handling lead, and maintaining good ventilation while engaging in lead bullet or fishing weight casting. Follow some simple precautions and it is a virtual non-issue... except to the activists who wish to eliminate those activities. Unfortunately, we will always have stupid people who do stupid things. And that involves everything from misusing household chemicals to cleaning motorcycle parts in gasoline right next to the pilot flame in a hot water tank. Should we ban household bleach just because some fools mix it with ammonia, and sustain permanent lung damage? Should we ban Tylenol just because overdoses of acetaminophen is the biggest cause of liver damage leading to transplants? I question the wisdom of shooters who help the anti-lead ammo forces by engaging in hysterics about forms of lead that have virtually nothing to do with 99.999% of lead ammunition usage. If public safety is truly the great concern, then there are much bigger fish to fry... like eliminating medical mistakes or deporting violent illegal alien felons.
The"Big Tent" of Gun owners is a Big Fraud... to give cover to fools who vote for Anti-gunners.
|
1 member likes this:
greener4me |
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,694 Likes: 43
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,694 Likes: 43 |
As far as I know , not one person involved in the banning of lead ammunition here in the UK is a shooting person , our National Shooting organisations are not robustly defending their membership against proposed change , just rolling over easily . I have been involved with shooting for more than sixty years , 25 fulltime employed in an indoor pipe range , regular blood tests without any issues and none of my workmates have died because of Lead poisoning .
|
2 members like this:
Stanton Hillis, Imperdix |
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,209 Likes: 524
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,209 Likes: 524 |
As far as I know , not one person involved in the banning of lead ammunition here in the UK is a shooting person , our National Shooting organisations are not robustly defending their membership against proposed change , just rolling over easily . I have been involved with shooting for more than sixty years , 25 fulltime employed in an indoor pipe range , regular blood tests without any issues and none of my workmates have died because of Lead poisoning . You do realize there is more to than that, of course.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan) =>/
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 141 Likes: 30
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 141 Likes: 30 |
What does the MLAGB(National Muzzleloading Association of Great Briton) think of the new lead restriction rules? Maybe the shotgunners can substitute bismuth but what of the ML Rigby, Whitworth and such riles; including the BP cartridge guns to do?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,513 Likes: 147
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,513 Likes: 147 |
The poster above is correct, as is ted a bit further down. There are already steel shot loads available in the UK that are perfectly safe in guns with a nitro proof, but without the steel shot proof. Those loads use smaller sized shot and at reduced velocity andpressure compared to the loads approved for guns with a steel shot proof.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 86 Likes: 82
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 86 Likes: 82 |
As I understand it at present, rifle ranges will be allowed to use bullets containing lead, and that the sand butts will be graded and filtered to remove the lead every so often. Apparently bird shot from game and clay shotgun cartridges contribute 96 % of the lead problem.
Air rifle pellets and .22 rimfire loads will be exempt from any ban as there is no other alternative that works. Also centrefire cartridges up to 0.240" will continue to be able to have lead cores. This has upset a lot of deer stalkers who use the .243 Winchester cartridge.
HB
|
1 member likes this:
Parabola |
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,694 Likes: 43
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,694 Likes: 43 |
Historic Bore, "Apparently bird shot from game and clay shotgun cartridges contribute 96 % of the lead problem."
What is the problem please? LEAD comes out of the ground in the first place. As you may have guessed I oppose any lead ban . Salopian
|
1 member likes this:
Stanton Hillis |
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 141 Likes: 30
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 141 Likes: 30 |
Interesting that the new rules would ban lead shot for target shooting except for the competitors representing the UK overseas(olympics, etc.). In the USA many clubs if not most large ones harvest their shot after a time and sell it; often to be sold again, cleaned up and graphited as reclaimed shot.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,568 Likes: 553
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,568 Likes: 553 |
As far as I know , not one person involved in the banning of lead ammunition here in the UK is a shooting person , our National Shooting organisations are not robustly defending their membership against proposed change , just rolling over easily . Historic Bore, "Apparently bird shot from game and clay shotgun cartridges contribute 96 % of the lead problem."
What is the problem please? LEAD comes out of the ground in the first place. As you may have guessed I oppose any lead ban . Salopian These comments from Salopian pretty much tell us all we need to know. It appears that the majority of UK shooters and gun owners are accepting the lead ammo ban as inevitable. Salopian and a small minority are not going to be able to stop or reverse it. It takes some effort and money to fight these things, and they can be beaten. But having a large number of gun owners who simply roll over, or say that it won't affect them too badly because they are older virtually insures losing. They are not unlike the shooters and gun owners here in the U.S. who foolishly continue to support anti-gun Democrats. You can't fix stupid, but you also don't have to accept stupid. You don't have to be nice to back-stabbers.
The"Big Tent" of Gun owners is a Big Fraud... to give cover to fools who vote for Anti-gunners.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,357 Likes: 153
Sidelock
|
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,357 Likes: 153 |
We have about a dozen traps and two skeet ranges at my club. We reclaim our lead shot. Some people buy it to reload. So, everything about lead shot at my club, works well for us. I enjoy being part of- what I feel like- one of the best shooting clubs in America. And I have always enjoyed being able to be a part of it. 👍
|
|
|
|
|