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Originally Posted by KY Jon
If they can not be shot why would they not head to the only market for them? If they hold no value to shoot what are they then?

Jon, a lot of folk seem to be under the impression that old British guns are unable to take steel shot. This is not the case at all. The guns can be shot using steel, provided they have half choke or less constriction and are otherwise safe to use. It would be incorrect to think that all old Brit SxS guns can not be shot.

It is still flawed legislation and there is no proven case of lead poisoning to humans from shot. I understand the wetlands argument against lead, but not that against other game shooting.

Of course, the supermarkets have all now said they don't want the terrible lead - which apparently kills so many people each year; please show me the proof - in the game that they pretty consistently fail to carry on their shelves anyway. Apparently the non-shooting chairman of a well known national supermarket brand was invited to a days shooting to spectate and learn about how well the game was handled. All went well until the end of the first drive and the pickers-up sent their dogs off to retrieve the fallen game. He was aghast. 'You mean the dogs pick the birds up in their mouths? And then carry it back to you?' He stomped off in disgust, not to be seen again, muttering something about not in my shops!

Tim

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Originally Posted by trw999
....a lot of folk seem to be under the impression that old British guns are unable to take steel shot. This is not the case at all. The guns can be shot using steel, provided they have half choke or less constriction and are otherwise safe to use. It would be incorrect to think that all old Brit SxS guns can not be shot.

It is still flawed legislation....

Tim

Steel shot in the US is very common, but to be effective it is fired at significantly higher velocity and shot charge volume, than lead. Is there any concern that the pressures required, would exceed proof? Is steel used at a less effective pattern density and velocity in the UK? Just curious.

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Craig,
Steel in England comes in two different levels of proof application:

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Guns that have the current version of Nitro Proof (revised early 2000s, I’m thinking, one of the English guys will straighten me out if I’m off) are OK with the “Standard Loading”, guns with the ace of clubs looking thing, or marked “Steel Shot”, can use the “High Performance” steel loading. That load is closer to what is on the shelf here in the US.

I have an issue calling any steel loading high performance. The steel shot stamp would seem to be easy to fake, to me.

YMMV.

Best,
Ted

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I suspect your standard steel shot will be about what we had 40 years ago when steel shot first became a thing here. It was too slow. 1200 fps steel might be OK for targets. No wounded clay target ever suffered a needless, lingering death. But I have seen countless ducks hit with steel in close range, fly off and drop dead, in flight a hundred or more yards from where they were hit. And the chance of recovery, where I hunt at those ranges, is somewhere between no chance in Hell and never in a thousand years. Plus I am sure others died after being shot without me seeing them drop. I refuse to shoot standard velocity steel at any game. If you look at the energy retained for a pellet at range and you will understand. If you did not hit a vital organ or break a wing it just failed to do the job.

I use Bismuth instead. You do not use that many shell hunting that you can not afford a box or two. And the birds deserve it.

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I read the article on Bioammo Blue and it was definitely interesting. Hopefully the cost can be brought down. My only concern was the velocities listed for the given shot sizes. Most of my reloads run up to 1200 fps but most are slower. The loads I read up on all seemed to be well over 1300 fps, some very close to 1400. Looking at the wads I wouldn't expect much cushioning. I have to wonder about the "felt" recoil" and it's effect, if any, on a light game gun's wood over time.

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UK government bans lead shot but Muslims will still be allowed to rape young British girls without consequences. My heart goes out to our law abiding British cousins and their once great country. Very sad

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Originally Posted by HistoricBore
Yes, the steel revolution is coming.

But the issue has nothing to do with party politics - all the parties support this. The 'science' of lead has overwhelmed common sense, and is coming in across Europe as well. Being 76 means that I am less worried about this than others. The five year transition will cover most of my future shooting.

I would be interested in seeing some proof or data to prove the statement that the UK Lead Ammo Ban has nothing to do with Party Politics.

From the news we get here, it seems evident that when anti-gun laws, ammo bans, or anti-hunting efforts are attempted or implemented in the U.S.A., the U.K., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc., those attacks on Gun Ownership and the Shooting Sports are virtually always done by the Liberal Left. Just before leaving office, Anti-gun Democrat Barack Obama's Interior Department tried to ban lead ammunition on lands managed by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

And when we see things like the U.S. Firearms Owners Protection Act, the reversal of the Clinton Assault Weapons Ban, or the repeal of the Canadian Long Gun Registry, those victories come through the efforts of Pro-gun rights Conservatives.

Of course, the wins we have also take a lot of backing from firearms owners, hunters, and organizations like the NRA, who are willing to make the effort to fight back. Rolling over and accepting these attacks as inevitable will never win anything, and only encourage more of the same. So if all Political Parties in the U.K. (or elsewhere) are complicit in infringing upon the rights of gun owners, then it seems to me that it would be foolish for gun owners to continue to support them in any way. When my former U.S. Senator began siding with anti-gunners on restrictions of semi-automatic rifles, I voiced my displeasure to his office, stopped voting for him, and campaigned against him. Politicians are supposed to work for us... not the other way around.

I tend to generalize about the foolishness of gun owners in the U.S.A. voting for Democrats, because they virtually all stick together on the issue. There was a time when I was too young to vote that Democrats like Senator John Dingell of Michigan were pro-2nd Amendment. He even served on the NRA Board of Directors. Those days seem to be long gone. His daughter Debbie Dingell is now a Liberal Democrat Senator from Michigan, and she is quite anti-gun. Michigan Gun Owners would be insane to reward her with their support.


The"Big Tent" of Gun owners is a Big Fraud... to give cover to fools who vote for Anti-gunners.

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Little Britain ! Like all great countries and empires ,it rose and now is falling into history.....all caused by its own occupants.

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1200FPS steel would probably be OK for ruffed grouse and American woodcock, if you have a solid retriever along with. I won’t hunt wild pheasants with any form of steel.

Really hopeful I’m not cornered on that decision in the years I’ve got left to hunt. Just OK isn’t really what I’m after.

Best,
Ted

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CIP 12g 50mm, 60mm, 65mm, and 70mm “Standard Proof” lead or steel (limited to no larger than 3.25 mm / U.S. No. 4s and max. fps 1,300)
Numbers are transducer BAR converted to PSI.
Maximum Average (SERVICE) Pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi;
Maximum Statistical Individual Pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi
Mean PROOF Pressure 930 BAR = 13,489 psi
(The original 1984 chart, which was revised in 1990, indicates 12g PROOF 960 BAR = 13,924 psi. The number was revised to 930 BAR)

12g “High performance/Superior Proof” (and 3” & 3 1/2”)
Maximum Average (Service) Pressure 1050 BAR = 15,229 psi
Maximum Statistical Individual Pressure 1200 BAR = 17,405 psi
Magnum proof 1320 BAR = 19,145 psi

Magnum proof was originally 1370 BAR but was lowered to 1320 about 2006.

12g STEEL regulations: the barrels carry the High Performance Steel Fleur de Lys stamp that Ted posted and are marked “Steel Shot”

Gamebore

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Shell box warning

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

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