doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com ot- Pickett's Charge

"For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two oclock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is stll time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armstead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much to lose and all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago...."

William Faulkner, Intruder in the Dust

Went to Gettysburg a few years ago when making a trip across the water. Interesting day spent there. Lagopus.....

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pain-in-the-neck-at-gettysburg/

I was at this reenactment when this happened, but was about a mile away at the time. Had a friend who thought he was Robert E. Lee reincarnate. He could have passed for his twin and was deeply involved in reenactments. Even died on Robert E. Lees birthday. He was there that day.

The "charge" was in part the result of poor intelligence and a flawed decision. Most battles have the same flaws but this one stood out more than most. Charging across such open ground, depleted the troops to the point that when they arrive they were a spent force. What a waste of men and courage. Walk across any Civil War battle ground and just think what it was like with bullets flying by, men massed to stand their ground. And cannon shot would mow them down by the scores. Solid shot was bad, but canister shot was devastating and Pickett's men endure both for 3/4 of a mile.

Funny thing is my family all fought for the North, but most of those into reenactments, over the years, are for the South. I am sure a few family members alive during the Civil War, who did not serve at the time, were Southern sympathizer on one side of the family. Maryland was a border state, and a slave state, with many residents of the Eastern Shore having more ties to the South than the North. "Maryland, My Maryland" was the state song of Maryland from 1939 until 2021 and was written to entice Southern defection in the Civil War. Lincoln flooded the state with troops and made any real chance of succession impossible.

In about 1955 when I was a kid, I walked Pickett's charge. It was a hot summer, and the ground was parched and the grass crispy. I don't remember if I felt them beneath my feet or just saw them in the dust, but by the time I reached the Ridge I had found two Minie balls. One had not been fired and the other had its nose pushed hard to the side. Both were pretty heavily corroded. I figure the first had been dropped in panic or fear, and the second came to no good regardless. They are sharp reminders of a day that carried a terrible cost.

If you think that Pickets charge was a waste look up the Battle of Franklin, TN. Hood ordered the Army of TN to charge 2 miles over open ground. They did and broke the Union line in 5 places but at a great cost in officers and men. My 2nd great grandfather was in that charge and survived. The Army of TN did not. Hood should have known better since he was at Gettysburg.

Skip, if you haven’t already, read Shrouds of Glory by Winston Groome. It is a great account of the Battle of Franklin and the nature of General Hood.

Thanks for the recommendation, I just ordered a copy.

Franklin. The death knell of Hoods Army. "The tooters and the shooters" going in together (the bands and the soldiers).

I took my aging French Father-in-Law - Free French veteran and veteran of French Vietnam conflict to Gettysburg 35 years ago. On top of Cemetery Ridge he was incredibly moved and said, "Dieu voulait que ce soit un champ de bataille." (God meant this to be a battlefield.).

In a Gettysburg reenactment about 20 years ago near the battlefield (but not on it)....there were 25,000 reenactors on the field including my brother...200 artillery pieces blasted away and then 12,000 confederates stepped off to begin the charge. The historical emotion was so overwhelming many were crying.
https://arteis.wordpress.com/2012/0...-of-23000-reenactors-at-gettysburg-1998/




Brother also was at a reenactment of the battle of Chicamagua where Longstreet's corps was sent south...the sterile victory when total victory was possible the Union army saved by Thomas. Before the reenactment (6000 Confederate reenactors suddenly appearing drawing gasps from the spectators and destroying the Union line) a steam engine chugged through the Georgian countryside with 5 cars stuffed with Confederates and artillery reenacting Longstreet's trip. People were falling on their knees and weeping at the crossings.

This 150 year history of the South is fading now. But the emotion is still there even while the "wave the bloody shirt" crowd savages the monuments. (And I won't deny the brutality of the frontier culture I grew up in though this doesn't invalidate history). Here again is the University of Mississippi band at "The Grove" playing "Dixie with love" for the last time (you can't play it anymore)...which melds with the "Battle Hymn of the Republic."

God? Maybe Drew can explain it.


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Was wondering how long it would take for the Lost Cause nutters to come out of the woodwork.

If you want to read an account of a WBTS battle plan gone wrong, but on the other side of how this discussion has been going, read about the Battle Of The Crater. This was a battle that took place during the Siege of Petersburg, VA in 1864. Union forces determined to dig a tunnel to, and underneath, the opposing Confederate forces entrenched opposite them. After months of digging, and being "led" by Gen. Meade, they set off a charge of some 8000 lbs. of black powder underground which resulted in the death of some 278 Confederates. The resulting hole was roughly 170 feet long, 100 to 120 feet wide, and at least 30 feet deep. The ensuing battle saw the Union forces milling about the crater, many down in it, where they were sitting ducks for Confederate forces. Union losses were 3798. U. S Grant called this "the saddest affair I have witnessed in this war".

What do you make of this, Stan? I find it rather curious.


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Not as good as a hockey thread, ed, but I reckon it’ll do.

Interesting piece of history. Thanks for sharing, ed.

The Civil War resulted in such heavy losses at least in part because Napoleonic tactics were still in use when technology (improved weapons) should have made them obsolete.

Stan needs to use the correct terminology.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/04/...s-share&referringSource=articleShare


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I can make this march, and make Georgia howl. William T. Sherman

Welcome back Lonesome. I know how much you enjoy the Puritans, but I'll give you Ezekiel Hopkins, "On Glorifying God in His Attributes"
Nothing comes to pass without our heavenly Father. No evil comes to pass without his permissive providence, and no good without his ordaining providence to his own ends. Divine providence does not only ordain what effects shall come to pass, but also by what means, what causes, and in what order they shall flow. God has appointed not only the effect itself, but the means to accomplish it.

1. One must be extremely cautious in presuming to know God's sovereign will and purpose ie. who is he punishing will Hurricane Beryl right now? Isaiah 55:8-9
2. God is good, but can use evil to accomplish his purpose, which is ultimately for good and His glory - Genesis 50:20
3. God will use evil people doing evil things to accomplish his purpose ie. the Babylonians and Israel - Jeremiah 18:17
4. Our PRIMARY battle is spiritual (Ephesians 6:10-11) but will live in a world filled with physical conflict, and must pick sides, and IMHO sometimes fight
5. Both the North and the South in the War Between the States thought God was on their side.

Abraham Lincoln's March 30, 1863 proclamation establishing a National Day of Fasting and Prayer
It is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God, and to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in Holy Scripture, and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord. And, insomuch as we know that by His divine law nations, like individuals, are subjected to punishments and chastisement in this world, may we not justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war which now desolates the land may be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins, to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people?
We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven; we have been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity; we have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which has preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us.
It behooves us, then, to humble ourselves before the offended power, to confess our national sins and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.

It’s the only thing I could think of what that statement meant, Drew. God was on the Union side.


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He is trampling out the vintage….

Abraham Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address, delivered March 4th, 1865 during the fourth year of the Civil War
Each (party) looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God’s assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men’s faces…(but) the prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes.

Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.” (Psalm 19:9b)


Another relevant question is "How much longer is He going to put up with us?"

Hopefully long enough for the Red Wings to win another Stanley Cup.


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Golf.

from 1914-18, and again from 1939 - 1945, german troops marked into battle wearing belt buckles that said....GOTT MIT UNS - such delusions are pretty typical for our species.

best regards,

tom

"There is a way which seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs 14:12

We can fool ourselves very easily into believing we are on God's side. If that way doesn't align perfectly with Scripture it is not of God, but of Satan. But, it is not always easy to determine.

The British said they got mittens too. But Stan is right, and what makes it harder, the Lord seems to have quit appointing prophets, and I think we could really use one right now.

Tim

Let’s see. Slavery, no slavery. Don’t have to think about that too long.


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Allatoona 7:30 p.m.
Oct. 9th 1864
Lt. Gen. Grant
City Point
It will be a physical impossibility to protect this road now that Hood, Forrest, Wheeler and the whole batch of Devils are turned loose without home or habitation. I think Hoods movements indicate a direction to the end of the Selma and Talladega road to Blue Mountain about sixty miles south west of Rome from which he will threaten Kingston, Bridgeport and Decatur and I propose we break up the road from Chattanooga and strike out with wagons for Milledgeville Millen and Savannah.

Until we can repopulate Georgia it is useless to occupy it, but utter destruction of its roads, houses, and people will cripple their military resources. By attempting to hold the roads we will lose a thousand men monthly and will gain no result. I can make the march and make Georgia howl. We have over 8,000 cattle and 3,000,000 pounds of bread but no corn, but we can forage the interior of the state.

W.T. Sherman

M. Genl.