doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com L.C. Smith Pre-1913

Hello Gentlemen, long time reader 1st time poster.

I recently purchased what I believe to be a Pre-1913 LC Smith SxS as an investment. Untouched gun with 98%? barrel and trigger guard blue with 100% of the case color and sharp details and perfect screws. Minor closet marks on the gun. I have done all my research and believe I've uncovered everything I need with exception of a few things which is why I'm starting this thread in hopes of receiving some of your knowledge. Here is what I know so far,,,,,

Description
• Grade No. 0, 1901- L.C. Smith
• Production Run - 4,195
• Regular Weight
• 12 Gauge
• 26" Twist Steel Barrel
• Double triggers
• Twin Extractor
• Splinter Forearm
• Stock size 14 3/8" x 1 5/8" x 3" Aprox.
• Vintage White Line Pachmayer recoil pad.

Markings
• S/N 106718
• PAT’D MAR 29.83
• JULY 13.86
•
Let me know if you guys want to see some pics in case I elect to not keep her.
R,
ChiefC

The 0-graded was introduced in 1895, after the move to Fulton, so Syracuse is wrong. From 1895 to 1899 the 0-grade came with twist barrels and with good Damascus barrels from 1899 to 1907 when the option of London Steel barrels was introduced. Certainly not " • Original White Line Pachmayer recoil pad." as they didn't come along until after WW-II. For a few years prior to WW-II and a while after there was the Fray-Mershon "Whiteline" recoil pads.

The serial number should give you an answer as to it's birthdate (I'm finding 1901 for it). More information than that would likely have to come from the LC Smith website. The "whiteline pad" would be troubling for me and I would suspect that it's been restored by somebody along the 123-years it's been around. Hopefully they were competent when they recolored the action and refinished those "Twist" tubes?

Hello Sidelock,

Thanks for the quick reply, most of the details I uncovered were from the LC Smith collector site. According to Collector site No. 00's were single triggered and the No. 0 is the only other LC Smith without engraving and twin triggers. I was hoping someone could confirm the 1901 year based upon the serial number.

My apologies on the use of "Original" for the recoil pad, I meant to say it was an original vintage Pachmayer pad, not original LC Smith recoil pad, Ill update above.

So, confirmation of my questions in blue still stand if someone out there can help or point me in the right direction, thanks!

Short answer...pre-1913 guns have had more human interaction involved in their manufacture. Even in the lower grades there are some nice touches (bushed firing pins, better shaped actions, nicer wood-to metal-fit and even better wood).

Hello LLoyd3,

I was familiar with additional gun history which can be purchased after purchasing a membership on LC Smith site. That is a road Ill cross once I decide if I'm keeping her. In all reality I prefer my hammerless Remington 1893 SxS, it fits better. Just checking here first in case someone has access to different information.

You bring up a good point though concerning recoil pad and it having been potentially restored. I took it down to Billy an old Chief (who probably fought in the big one) where I bird hunt because I suspected the barrels having been re-blued and he said "no", that's when he mentioned all original LC Smiths barrels come in a dull brown-blue hue. Hence, I was trying to confirm if the information he shared with me was accurate.

Like you I am leaning towards restored but am certainly not an expert and this is the first LC Smith I've owned/held. I base my observation on some stain runs under the splinter hand guard when I disassembled to match up all serial number stampings, but who knows maybe only the stocks were re-stained.

Maybe posting some pics would clear things up, going to see if I can update original post with a couple of pics.

ChiefC, they made 4,195 No. 0's in 1901 when your gun was made. After 1912 they became Ideal Grades. The Damascus barrels were done in black/white and after time changed to a brownish color. Everything else stated is correct.
Still a nice gun to own and shoot.

Thanks again Lloyd, that answers/confirms 1901 as production year and Quality as why Pre-1913 Smiths are sought after a little more.

Both the No. 00 and No. 0 were available with the HOT after introduction 1904-1905

"all original LC Smiths barrels come in a dull brown-blue hue" is incorrect. As David said they were finished in "black & white"



Full size high resolution images are easy to post on the LCSCA site, and there are certainly experts there who could help decide if the gun has been refinished.

I have 1901 for the 10 and 12 gauge (non-ejector). The year 1900 ended at 105917 for the 10 and 12 gauge (non-ejector). The serial numbers in 1901 went up to 111681 for that year. So, 1901 is correct.

I would question the originality of the 26" barrels. What is the bore diameter and choke constriction? They would add some hints about the originality of those barrels.

Thanks to Lloyd, David, Drew, Jimmy and everyone who contributed to the addition details concerning my LC Smith. Well, I finally dragged her out of the safe and snapped some pictures. Hopefully I am successful in posting them, please let me know if there are any further specific pictures you may need in assessing if the shotgun has been re-blued. In all fairness I did wipe with gun cloth shotgun before snapping pics.

OK, can't figure out how to post the pics, unsure what it means to insert image links (URLs), can someone assist? Ill also research the board on how to do it.

Thanks I think I got it ,,,,, let me know if you can see the pics.

[img]https://imgur.com/a/FKCBawc[/img]

The gun has been poorly refinished



The 'case colors' on the sideplates and action are from heating the metal with a torch and using cold blue to produce colors



The barrels, triggers and trigger guard have been blued, likely with hot caustic salts meaning the 2 barrels and ribs will, before long, separate.
The barrels are damascus and it is likely they were cut. A gunsmith could measure the length of the choke constriction to confirm, and you might see a gap between the keels and barrels at the muzzle.



We think 'SD&G' is Schoverling, Dales & Gales; a large sporting goods firm in New York City.

If you can return the gun, do it.

Hello Drew,

Thanks for the additional information albeit in your opinion not good. Cannot return, so I guess this makes it an awesome shooter. Odd though, this gun came from the estate of a prominent shooter who shot competition and knew his trade. And according to LC Smith.org site research a 1901 was not offered with Damascus barrels until 1907.

Like everything else, will await/seek alternate opinions.
Thanks again,
R,
ChiefC

Sorry Eightbore,

Didn't see your input, I am unsure if 26" original or not or if I measured correctly. I simply lowered a measuring tape in the barrels until it bottomed out and I recall a rough measurement of 26". Maybe I'll remeasure, what do you believe they should be?

Oh, I also remember measuring the muzzle bore to confirm the gauge and it was at around 20mm.

Thanks
r,
ChiefC

A Research Letter would confirm the original specifications, and possibly to where the gun was shipped
https://lcsca.clubexpress.com/content.aspx?page_id=22&club_id=43784&module_id=245742

No. 0 was introduced in 1894, initially with Twist but by at least 1898 Good 2 Rod Damascus

1902 Sears catalog

They made 216 No. 0" with 26" barrels in 1901 and 1 with 24" barrels.

Drew, David, All,

This is an awesome site thank you all for your contributions in narrowing down my assumptions in new LC Smith (both correct and incorrect ones :-)

Drew, my apologies I misread the LC.org writeup on the No.0 by missing the period " Twist Steel barrels were available when it was first offered, but they were changed to Damascus Steel in 1899. Starting in 1907, new London Steel barrels were an option." As mentioned before I was aware of the history letter, but figured it was a bridge Id cross if the shotgun warranted it.

David, wow, the information you mentioned is really helpful "They made 216 No. 0" with 26" barrels in 1901 and 1 with 24" barrels.". I can definitely exclude the 24" barrel and if it is a 26" then it helps the cause. A run of only 216 No.0's is small, wonder if it boosts its collectability.

This is quickly changing my view on purchasing the History letter, let me mull it over a bit and if I do purchase Ill share for visibility.

Thanks again everyone,
R,
ChiefC