doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Hunting with the 9.3x57R/360

Just don't confuse the 360 2 1/4 & 9.3x57R(360) with the 360 Express & 360 #2 Express.

I used a black powder proofed 360EX ( 360x2.25”) double to tale a large northern whitetail this past November. https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=636745&page=3

No disrespect, but my Watson double rifle from 1906 is just marked "360EX" on the barrel flats. No nitro proofs. Chamber cast definitely is for a 360x2.25" rimmed case.

If you're saying that a the black powder and nitro for black guns are definitely not for nitro, I totally agree.

Chris

CJF,
It seems that you are mixing terms. In the 360-2 1/4" case there was an "express" loading with a lighter bullet at a higher velocity using black power. The term "nitro for black" doesn't apply to the rifles, rather it applies to ammunition loaded by factories for black powder rifles using smokeless power at a pressure appropriate for the rifles and hopefully to "regulate" close to the black power load. Also, in the 360 2 1/4" case, there was a Nitro Express load with a 300-grain jacketed bullet at a higher velocity for use only in rifles proofed for Nitro Express ammo. Your fine Watson double rifle is not for 360 Nitro Express, but 360 Black powder Express and 360 Nitro for Black powder Express should be OK.
Mike

The entire 360 family is confusing. The 360 2 1/4 BPE and the 9.3x57R(360) were black powder cartridges in essentially the same case so used BP (or for the Brit, Nitro for BP) loaded to max 28,000 PSI. The 360 2 1/4 Nitro Express used the same brass but was loaded to 34,000 PSI so for newer rifles only and marked for Nitro. The 360 #2 Nitro Express was a much larger in diameter 3 inch case with nearly twice the powder capacity and Nitro only. To add confusion, the 400-360 NE used brass in between the two in diameter and 2 3/4 inches long for Nitro only. I load my 9.3x57R(360) rifles with nitro powder at nitro for black powder levels and I would guess that the Germans did also. Early German and Swedish loads would have been BP. Husqvarna made rolling block rifles in that caliber until 1915 and recommended loads from 50 to 54 grains of BP with bullets from 160 to 195 grains in weight.

HalfaDouble,
Maybe it would a little less confusing if instead of grouping "families" by nominal bullet designations, they were grouped by case designation instead. As an example, .308, 243,260,7-08, and 358 would be a family instead of 30 carbine,308 ,30-06, 300 Win, and 300 Wea. being a family of cartridges. With the 360 grouping you cited, I would consider the 360-2 1/4 and 9.3/360s in a family (there are differences in head dimeters of several thousandths, depending on manufacturers), but I would put the 360#2 in the 450 base family and the 400-360 NE( a couple versions,400-350 a couple versions,9.3x72R S&S,and 9.3x74R) in the 400 base family. You didn't mention the 360 #5, but it is often confused with the larger 360s whereas it is a 380-base cartridge. It is confusing if you expect everything to follow some rule. The way I look at it is similar to a German trying to understand American English (I lived in Germany 9 years), or an American trying to learn German, without taking classes; there are a lot of things thar don't follow a rule, you just have to learn by rote. I don't remember how many times I explained to my translators the difference between fix (to repair) and fix (to attach to). I hope I didn't confuse matters further.
Mike

Don't forget that you will often find the Swedes following the British convention in using bore diameter (9.15 for .360) instead of groove (9.3 for .365-.367) hence 9.15x57R(360). You may have added to the confusion by mentioning the 9.3x72R Sauer instead of the more common 9.3x72R based on the British 360 case (and where the (360) comes from and one of a large German family based on the 360 case) and the one most commonly used to form the 9.3x57R(360) simply by shortening. Curiously I form my 6.5x58R Sauer from the common 9.3x72R brass. As an aside, I would think that using affix would solve the English/German fix problem;-)

Hi Der Ami,

I agree my Watson is not a nitro gun.

I was unclear in what I was trying to say, which was that when HalfaDouble said "Just don't confuse the 360 2 1/4 & 9.3x57R(360) with the 360 Express...", that this was also potentially untrue, as my Watson is marked "360EX" or 360 Express, even though it is by no means a nitro gun.

I agree with your statement about NFB loadings being for black powder guns. I was trying to say so in my last sentence.

Sorry for the confusion.

Chris

No, I'm sorry, Chris, for including that without the Nitro in front of it. Here's a bit from the Imperial War Museum that describes some Eley cartridges marked 360 Express that were in coiled brass cases. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30027656 (click the Show More to get the data) I suppose that the 360 2 1/4 BPE was so common that the 2 1/4 was not felt necessary and that no one would have expected Nitro loads in coiled brass cases anyway besides there not being room on the case heads for the 2 1/4. British proof houses were very strict about marking Nitro proofed rifles with "Nitro" and the Cordite load and bullet weight used.

HalfaDouble,
Check again In the 360-2 1/4 and 9.3/360s group, the s indicates plural meaning all the 9.3s based on the 360 case, including 9.3X72R E, D, and Normalizert, as well as a raft of others. The 9.3X72( S&S) is often confused in writing with the 9.3X 72R Noralizert(standardized), but in use it is sometimes confused with the 9.3x74R. I have one that I bought as a 9.3X74 that as usual for the time was not clearly marked as to the cartridge it used. I had a scope mounted in claw mounts and it was sighted in as 9.3x74R. After killing several Red Deer with it, it blew a primer. I had a gas tight firing pin installed by another German gunsmith and shot more Red Deer with it. After moving back home, I started loading for a 9.3x57 and having some of the 9.3X74R cases I had shot in the Sauer BF, I just checked to see if a 9.3 250 grain bullet would enter the case. I was surprised that it wouldn't enter. After having the scope mounted, I had discovered that it wouldn't group with any bullet longer than the factory round nose jacketed bullet and I wanted to see if the 250 grain spitzer would work. Remembering the 9.3X72R was loaded with a lighter 185 grain bullet, it dawned on me after all those years that the rifle was chambered for the Sauer and Son round. After close examination of the case fired in the rifle, I discovered that where the case-mouth was crimped into the bullet the case diameter was small enough to go past the chamber into the throat. upon firing it wouldn't expand enough, thereby raising the gas pressure enough to blow the primer. Now I just shorten the cases by 2mm and load the 250 grain bullets in my 9.3x74R dies, it works like a charm. I form 6.5x58R S&S from original length 38-55 cases to avoid shortening 9.3X72R that much. A friend gave me some 9.3s already sized and I may break down and try them. The Brits might not have used cordite when the foil cases were used.

CJF
No problem, as you can see from above, we all sometimes write things that are confusing. I still think your Watson is a very nice rifle.
Mike