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Forums10
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Most Online1,344 Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 865 Likes: 38
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 865 Likes: 38 |
Should an English “ best” gun include a third fastener? Would you prefer one with a hidden third fastener ( Purdey “nose” or similar, to one without ( all other factors being equal)? I have always seen this feature as desirable, although I wonder if there is any actionable advantage over just the double under bolts. Is a third fastener worth more when considering a “ best” gun purchase, should the lack of one be grounds for a discount ? Are “ hidden” third fasteners more quality indicative than say, a dollshead or Greener/ Scott rib extension crossbolt? I know that heavy proof guns consistently feature additional bolting features, but are they necessary for a general use 2 1/2” - 1 1/8 oz. Field gun ? Do they offer any advantages for keeping a gun tight and on face longer than a gun without? Do third fasteners add anything to Rocketman’s value tables? Thank for your comments. Best Regards, JBP
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1 member likes this:
Ted Schefelbein |
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,738 Likes: 432
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 6,738 Likes: 432 |
JBP, might it not depend on what sort of best it is? A best gun for heavy loads might be quite different than one meant for very light loads.
_________ BrentD, (Professor - just for Stan)
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1 member likes this:
Jimmy W |
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,634 Likes: 75
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,634 Likes: 75 |
Hidden third fasteners are only usually found on pigeon guns and seldom on field guns
Mike Proctor
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,767 Likes: 756
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 9,767 Likes: 756 |
Should an English “ best” gun include a third fastener? Would you prefer one with a hidden third fastener ( Purdey “nose” or similar, to one without ( all other factors being equal)? I have always seen this feature as desirable, although I wonder if there is any actionable advantage over just the double under bolts. Is a third fastener worth more when considering a “ best” gun purchase, should the lack of one be grounds for a discount ? Are “ hidden” third fasteners more quality indicative than say, a dollshead or Greener/ Scott rib extension crossbolt? I know that heavy proof guns consistently feature additional bolting features, but are they necessary for a general use 2 1/2” - 1 1/8 oz. Field gun ? Do they offer any advantages for keeping a gun tight and on face longer than a gun without? Do third fasteners add anything to Rocketman’s value tables? Thank for your comments. Best Regards, JBP They add nothing if they aren’t fitted with the utmost precision. A square bolt is more difficult to cut and fit than a round one. A single underbolt is actually more than enough. Most doubles actually have double underbolts. Best, Ted
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1 member likes this:
mc |
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,124 Likes: 195
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,124 Likes: 195 |
This gun in its day was considered "Best" having 2 1/2 inch chambers snap action with just one bolt to this day its original fitted when first built, keeping the gun closed for a hundred and fifty years with no work needed on it for the foreseeable future. As far as it goes it all depends on what the gun is built to do.
The only lessons in my life I truly did learn from where the ones I paid for!
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3 members like this:
Jimmy W, Karl Graebner, mc |
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,530 Likes: 82
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,530 Likes: 82 |
Question to be asked is that if third fasteners were so important or necessary , then why did most makers abandon them except for guns built for heavy loads ?
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 666 Likes: 45
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 666 Likes: 45 |
In terms of value, I don't think a third fastener, standing alone, makes any kind of difference. I wouldn't ding an otherwise better or best gun pricewise for not having one. They more correlate to the standard features available in the era of construction and therefore represent what you would expect to encounter on an off the shelf golden era best, IMO.
My guns have the hidden one. I like that feature compared to a doll's head that develops gaps over time as the actions loosens. I was reading one of the big makers when reconditioning/rebuilding old actions actually take out the doll's head for that reason.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,138 Likes: 200
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,138 Likes: 200 |
"Take out the doll's head?" Purdey pigeon guns have hidden third fasteners and side clips. I'm sure a Purdey will stay tight for many decades without those features. The same goes for Parkers without the doll's head. In fact, Parker pigeon guns are often built without the doll's head.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 778 Likes: 36
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 778 Likes: 36 |
Some makers only used the 3rd fastener on heavy load guns, others barely ever build a gun of any quality without. I think it is simplistic to correlate a 3rd fastener with a level of quality: as Dan S.W. says above, it is about what was accepted procedure in the area that the Maker inhabited, in time, geographical and industry areas. Purdey only used the hidden 3rd fastener, which they patented, but they are not restricted to only heavy load guns: many customers simply requested them in their game guns. It was an option, nothing more nor less. Blanch used a top extension extensively, in fact the absence is the exception rather than the norm but many of those guns are undoubtedly 'Best'. They also had through lumps on many of their 'Best' guns but that is a whole other wasp's nest! I don't think I have ever seen a Greener without a top extension but I wouldn't advise telling a Greener nut that their 'Best' gun isn't! I don't think it is a plus or minus feature in general, it depends on the maker and your personal prejudice!
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2 members like this:
Dan S. W., Ted Schefelbein |
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,345 Likes: 391
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,345 Likes: 391 |
I was probably about 14 years old when the old German gunsmith who had a shop near my parent's home showed me how a few different American doubles had single locking bolt systems. Then he proudly showed me a couple German shotguns with three locking bolts, and told me they were much stronger.
It made a lot of sense at the time. Years later, I learned that many guns with multiple bolts are poorly fitted to the point that only one bolting surface is doing the work. Even bolt action rifles are often lapped to get both locking lugs bearing evenly. But many of those pre-war German guns had some very nice workmanship and highly polished internal parts, so maybe they are better. I don't know how one could actually check a shotgun, other than coating locking surfaces with carbon black or layout blue, and checking for even contact. Getting three locking bolts to all bear perfectly would take some meticulous attention to detail. I'd hope to have such close fitting in a Best Quality gun. But most shooters would probably never know unless it prematurely went off the face. Some guns stand the test of time, and some don't.
A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.
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