doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Third fastener

Should an English “ best” gun include a third fastener?
Would you prefer one with a hidden third fastener ( Purdey “nose” or similar, to one without ( all other factors being equal)?
I have always seen this feature as desirable, although I wonder if there is any actionable advantage over just the double under bolts.
Is a third fastener worth more when considering a “ best” gun purchase, should the lack of one be grounds for a discount ?
Are “ hidden” third fasteners more quality indicative than say, a dollshead or Greener/ Scott rib extension crossbolt?
I know that heavy proof guns consistently feature additional bolting features, but are they necessary for a general use 2 1/2” - 1 1/8 oz. Field gun ? Do they offer any advantages for keeping a gun tight and on face longer than a gun without?
Do third fasteners add anything to Rocketman’s value tables?
Thank for your comments.
Best Regards,
JBP

JBP, might it not depend on what sort of best it is? A best gun for heavy loads might be quite different than one meant for very light loads.

Hidden third fasteners are only usually found on pigeon guns and seldom on field guns

They add nothing if they aren’t fitted with the utmost precision. A square bolt is more difficult to cut and fit than a round one.

A single underbolt is actually more than enough. Most doubles actually have double underbolts.

Best,
Ted

This gun in its day was considered "Best" having 2 1/2 inch chambers snap action with just one bolt to this day its original fitted when first built, keeping the gun closed for a hundred and fifty years with no work needed on it for the foreseeable future. As far as it goes it all depends on what the gun is built to do.

Question to be asked is that if third fasteners were so important or necessary , then why did most makers abandon them except for guns built for heavy loads ?

In terms of value, I don't think a third fastener, standing alone, makes any kind of difference. I wouldn't ding an otherwise better or best gun pricewise for not having one. They more correlate to the standard features available in the era of construction and therefore represent what you would expect to encounter on an off the shelf golden era best, IMO.

My guns have the hidden one. I like that feature compared to a doll's head that develops gaps over time as the actions loosens. I was reading one of the big makers when reconditioning/rebuilding old actions actually take out the doll's head for that reason.

"Take out the doll's head?" Purdey pigeon guns have hidden third fasteners and side clips. I'm sure a Purdey will stay tight for many decades without those features. The same goes for Parkers without the doll's head. In fact, Parker pigeon guns are often built without the doll's head.

Some makers only used the 3rd fastener on heavy load guns, others barely ever build a gun of any quality without.
I think it is simplistic to correlate a 3rd fastener with a level of quality: as Dan S.W. says above, it is about what was accepted procedure in the area that the Maker inhabited, in time, geographical and industry areas.
Purdey only used the hidden 3rd fastener, which they patented, but they are not restricted to only heavy load guns: many customers simply requested them in their game guns. It was an option, nothing more nor less.
Blanch used a top extension extensively, in fact the absence is the exception rather than the norm but many of those guns are undoubtedly 'Best'. They also had through lumps on many of their 'Best' guns but that is a whole other wasp's nest!
I don't think I have ever seen a Greener without a top extension but I wouldn't advise telling a Greener nut that their 'Best' gun isn't!
I don't think it is a plus or minus feature in general, it depends on the maker and your personal prejudice!

I was probably about 14 years old when the old German gunsmith who had a shop near my parent's home showed me how a few different American doubles had single locking bolt systems. Then he proudly showed me a couple German shotguns with three locking bolts, and told me they were much stronger.

It made a lot of sense at the time. Years later, I learned that many guns with multiple bolts are poorly fitted to the point that only one bolting surface is doing the work. Even bolt action rifles are often lapped to get both locking lugs bearing evenly. But many of those pre-war German guns had some very nice workmanship and highly polished internal parts, so maybe they are better. I don't know how one could actually check a shotgun, other than coating locking surfaces with carbon black or layout blue, and checking for even contact. Getting three locking bolts to all bear perfectly would take some meticulous attention to detail. I'd hope to have such close fitting in a Best Quality gun. But most shooters would probably never know unless it prematurely went off the face. Some guns stand the test of time, and some don't.

The 3rd bite is something you would miss on a WR droplock or a Dickson RA. Yes WR builds/built many of their droplock without their c-bolt dollshead. However, WR third bite is classic and adds some value to the gun. I haven’t seen a Dickson RA without a third bite.

Ken

In the Best gun category, the maker would build what the customer wanted. GB Evans Purdey he inherited from Dr Norris was alight bird gun but had a Purdey nose and sideclips to action. When a gun was built for heavier loads it was often given some extra locking support regardless of whether it was needed. I had a WJ Jeffery with Purdey nose and somewhere I read they used that not for locking support but it stabilized the ejectors better. I don't like the Greener crossbolt but think the screwgrip action or hidden third fastener are cool. Now I want to know if the top extension on a Dickson RA is supposed to help with lockup.

Why don't you like the Greener crossbolt? Just curious.

My Cashmore BLE Paragon has a hidden 3rd fastener. It's a light 12 gauge proofed for 1.25 oz loads. I'm happy to have a 3rd fastener whether it is essential or not. I've certainly got nothing bad to say about Greener crossbolts either, at least three of my current guns have them, all from different makers. I'm not to hot on doll's heads, but no particular reason why. Just don't care for them so much and sold the one I had.

Brent, no reason for my dislike of the Greener crossbolt. I suspect it could be used alone and be substantial to work. I have a W Betts with one and it is the kind that does not protrude from the fences when opened, which is a little cleaner to my eye.

Yes, if there is one thing that I could fault mine for, it is that, when the gun open and laid on its left side, the bolt points down. Frequently, that is into my tonneau cover. It has never hurt anything, though it is quite sharp.