doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Daly Timeline Post WWI - Not for Canvas-Back Eyes

So after Charles Daly's death on January 11th 1899 @ his home in Summit New Jersey, then on November 25th, 1899 Schoverling, Daly & Gales was incorporated by Jospeh Gales of Elizabeth, New Jersey, Ella Daly King of East Orange, New Jersey and Theodore William Stake of New York City. William Theodore Stake was born in 1861 in NY City(died in 1929??) but educated in London and then Canada. He was vice president in 1915 and VP, secretary & director in 1918 after Joseph Gales' expiring on June 3rd, 1916(born April 29th, 1847). Some concern, maybe S,D&G offered a scattergun with the tradename T.W. Stake......<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=255497&page=17

For the moment, I am just assembling notes in an effort to cobble together info already posted here; so bear with me.


Lep Pozdrav,

Raimey
rse

More notes......
>>What I can't make sense of is how Henry Modell factors into the equation. I don't even think the owners of the defunct Charles Daly info page even know the true story. Hungarian immigrant Morris Modell entered the U.S. of A. in the early 1880s and by 1889 had his own clothing cart, which he quickly turned into an actual business with a true address. He peddled items to servicemen on leave and actually is purported to have outfitted Roosevelt & his contingent in the Spanish-American war. During WWI Morris' son Henry(1 of 7) was drafted, and I've seen his draft card somewhere, and when he returned sometime between 1917 & 1919 he inherited the firm and looks to have incorporated it as Henry Modell Company, Inc. He became president in 1920. The concern seems strongly centered around clothing & surplus and not sporting arms, but it is possible. I think the sporting goods aspect was added when they acquired the Davega concern.

I don't think Charles Howard Daly was truly at the helm until after Joseph Gales death, and then he more than likely was just a director and secretary. It seems that Theodore W. Stake was still in control. But it is possible in the 1917-1919 period that Henry Modell injected cash into the concern but it appears he had his hands full in taking surplus WWI military items and turning them into useful civilian wares as the country was headed toward a depression. After Charles Howard Daly's demise in 1924, negotiations with the Davega concern added Schoverling, Daly & Gales under their umbrella resulting in March of 1927 in the name Knickerbocker, Schoverling, Daly & Gales, possibly less the Charles Daly trademark name which went to Sloan's Department stores a year later. I'm not sure if the Charles Daly trademark was separated from Schoverling, Daly & Gales prior to the purchase by Davega or not. In 1963 Henry Modell purchased the bankrupt Davega concern. It would seem that post 1928 that a sporting arm wearing the Charles Daly trademark name would have passed thru Sloan's Department stores.<<<


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Charles Howard in Yale Obit directory 1923 - 1924:













Joseph Gales expires in 1916 and Charles Howard Daly is President from 1917 till......

And there was a Charles Howard Daly, Junior



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Is Joe Wood still with us?? Noticed his name whilst I was reading.......

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Ha! I’m looking anyways.

Raimey, Joe was by a couple days ago. But I don’t know more than that.

Ah.... I thought that would keep you away.....



Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, to keep things in perspective as to why all this effort, Ernst Lindner, H.A. Lindner's son & apparently only business heir, fell in fierce fighting with the Brits so H.A. Lindner more than likely shuttered his compagnie in June/July 1915, possibly a little later in an attempt to get things off his mind????? Therefore, it is more than likely necessary to start this timeline @ the unfortunate demise of Ernst Lindner:

06.07.1883 Suhl (Schleusingen-Pr.) to 16.06.1915 Bellewaarde......

Serbus,


Raimey
rse

To recap from the above:

Ernst Lindner expires on June 16th, 1915

Joseph Gales born April 29th, 1847 expires on June 3rd, 1916

Charles Howard Daly born November 6th, 1874 expires on November 17th, 1924.

Theodore William Stake born in 1861, expires on November 19th, 1929, unless there were 2 Theodore William Stakes born between 1861-1863 and died in 1929?

Next I guess we need to look @ the Charles Daly concern changing of hands....

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Not 100% absolute, but a few sources give that Schoverling, Daly & Gales / Charles Daly was defunct in 1919?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too, it makes me cringe like fingernails on a blackboard, when I read that there is such a component as a Charles Daly AR upper......


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

It often seems remarkable how once valued brand names get debased. It is always death by 1000 cuts. Each licencee is motivated to maximize the return on their investment, knowing that building brand value will most likely cause the licence to be revoked because of increasing value to the owner of the IP. It creates a negative spiral that I’ve never seen halted. Usually the only concern the IP owner has is that the downward spiral isn’t too fast. They know it’s happening……they just want to drag it out.

Determining exactly when (and with who) the Charles Daly brand became a separate IP, disconnected from SD&G, would be interesting.

It appears that Sloan' s Sporting Goods of Connecticut incorporated on March 10th, 1920?? Sloan's was @ 88 Chambers, Manhattan whilst Schoverling, Daly & Gales was @ 84 & 86 Chambers early on. Sloan's was the sole importer of Abesser & Merkel in the late 1920s and 1930s.

Sloan's Sporting Goods must have purchased the Charles Daly name in the early to mid 1920s as by the 1930s they are using the Daly name in their description of their shotguns.



Sloan's Sporting Goods 1937 Advert

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Sloan' s Sporting Goods of Connecticut was also the sole importer of Adamy Suhl during the 1920s & 1930s. Sloan's must have preserved Daly's sourcing lines to Germany?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

in an effort to get a grasp on the whole picture of Schoverling, Daly & Gales, I got off my duff & picked up a few old >>Schoverling, Daly & Gales, Wholesale Gun Dealers<< catagloues. I am starting to gently sift thru the pages and I thought I'd start an info thread on all the accessories, like Gunsmith Tools Whitehouse Make, peddled by the concern.





Possible a little insight into components like Nr. 22 - Cherry Conical, Nr. 24 Cherry Round, Nr. 48 - Slant or Cock Clamp.....





2nd page of Gunsmith Tools and note they peddled American & Belgian threads



Too, if any knowledgeable member could better describe the use of each tool or component, I would appreciate it.

Last, I can keep this in the Basement in the German & Austrian Section or post in the General Area.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I would me more than happy to oblige anyone that requests a closeup of any component, tool or description.

Serbus,


Raimey
rse

This info is from the 3rd Edition of their CATALOGUE with principals:

August Schoverling
Charles Daly
Joseph Gales
Henry F. Rice

Foreign Offices in:

65 & 66 Weaman Street, Birmingham

17 Rue de Paradis Poissoniere, Paris

And they note there is an office in Liège, but not info is given.....

Last they note that speak German & French.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, what year is the third edition of the catalogue?

Not sure just yet Canvas-Back, but with the 84 & 86 Chambers Street, NY, it is from the 1880s... They were located there in1884.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I will have to look, but I think the Bicycle Expert Joseph Gales joined the merry band in 1877(Charles Daly has 1887????) And I know that @ least by 1897 that Schoverling, Daly & Gales was located @ 302 Broadway & 64 Duane Street. So I must do some reading....

In 1897 their Postal Box Number had changed to 476; their Cable Address was >>Owlish<<; and their telephone was >>759 Franklin<<.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Ah, 1879 per the thread below:

>>.....I think it was in 1871 or 1877 as I've gotten my dates crossed but surely in the 1870s, SD&G had a satellite office at No. 65 Weaman Street, Birmingham and that seems to be the address of Tolley. Schoverling & Daly were involved in several import/retail houses and just like the tale that Charles Daly spun on the stand in the early 1890s(A. Schovering possibly would have been in the hot seat but he was on holiday in Germany where he expired) it seems that components were being imported as follows as all along with others were listed as agents of Schoverling & Daly:
Tubes to William R. Schaefer was located 61 Elm Street, Boston, Massachusetts;
Locks & Traps to Thomas L. Golcher 116 West Girard Street Philadelphia, Pennsylvania(Joseph Jakob was also in Philly);
& Stocks/wood to Schoverling & Daly in New York. This would explain how all those similar components landed up on American assembled sporting weapons from the period. Now the possibility exists there were other import houses but these were Schoverling & Daly agents in the cities where the imports arrived. Schoverling & Daly advertised the "Daly Gun" as an import gun but then when the import tariffs were imposed the "Daly Gun" was a homegrown sporting weapon. Then in 1879 bicycle peddler Joseph Gales was added to the management.<<
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=641393#Post641393

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Interesting too from the catalogue is that there were Telegraphic Codes to order things. There was a code for the item plus a code for the number of items.

>>This Telegraphic Cipher Code will be found convenient in ordering Guns, Cartridges and other Leading Goods.<<

>>The plan of the Code is simple: A single word is made to take the place of a long description or series of numbers, viz(videlicet).....<<

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

S,D & G example of ordering a >>Daly<< scattergun & ammo....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse

A bit more than a cursory effort, I only see a few date references to patents, etc. which approach 1881. 3rd Addition so if we assume(assumption is the anthesis of exactude) that the 1st catalogue commenced w/ the additon of Gales(1879), so there was a Premier Edition(1880), 2nd Addition(1882) and 3rd Addition(1883)????


Too, from this S,D&G Wholesale catalogue, 3rd Addition, it appears that the bulk of the Belgian wares(including Imitation Turkish Tubes.....), W. Richards London & Belgium, Gallager, Zulu, , you name it, originated w/ S,D & G. Possibly all of the Belgian wares, less a handful, passed thru the Import Houses of S,D&G.

Any component for any smokepole stuffer, hammergun, Boxlock, to Flobert, to you name it is contained therein.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Um, just a tid-bit of info on production of Daly wares by a Suhl mechanic, purportedly, from the early 1920s. An artikel in >>Guns Magazine<< March 1958 I scanned gives that Heym was turning out Dalys in the early 1920s and purveyor Ray Riling was aiding in peddling Daly's gems? Anyone have a good lead on what Ray Riling was doing the in 1920s? I believe it stated that Ray Riling was actually the Heym Rep in the U.S. of A. then?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

But the story mostly focuses on Heym's determination to survive the Russian Occupation, where he & 8 other mechanics were kept in a Cellar of a house in Zella-Mehlis for months. 3 times a week from midnight to 3 am, they would drag Heym in for interrogation and actually beat him with a rubber hose about the head & back. During this time the occupiers were trying to get his factory up & going. So they brought A. Heym out to get the factory going and two weeks later he slipped away to the West. A few other of his mechanics were able to do the same.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Even though this is not for my eyes, is the article regarding Heym referencing the immediate post WWII time frame?

No, it was about the Rich History of Heym up to WWII, then about escaping the East and starting anew in the West and that's where it ended.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

>>Too Tough to Die<< was the artikel.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Too Canvas-Back, something for your eyes: can you glance a couple threads down to >>A. Schuler Drilling<< as there is someone in your neck of the woods looking for a value.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Here's a thread that references it:

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=265111

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Petrov's comments makes me put a grain of salt with the artikel.

>>From "Guns" magazine March 1958,

"The Gunsmith too Tough to Die" by John Fisher Kerr, has lot of the Heym history as told by August Heym.<<

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

The Most Adept Larry has it scanned & added to the Engraver section:

https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-guns/engraving-study/

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

If anyone cannot find it I can add some screen-shots to view it. Maybe I should do that anyway.

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

Serbus,

Raimey
rse

I'm the one who suggested he post here for more info. Have already avised about price.

I had a FW Heym boxlock. Nicely made.

Raimey,
Thanks for the article about August Heym. By the time I got there, he had died and somehow Mauser had taken control of the company and were making Mauser Mod.2000, 3000, 4000 rifles and sub caliber(14.4mm) training devices for training of 105mm Artillery forward observers, and some automobile parts as well as Heym guns. When I went back for my second tour, the courts had returned ownership to the family and August's widow was the owner. As far as I know, she and August had no children.
Mike