doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers

A Reilly percussion gun 18 bore SxS barrel set is being offered on Gunbroker which, if it is authentic, will present a new serial number problem for Reilly's from the late 1830's-1847.
https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/1009915336

The barrel has a SN 4188, which is outside of the current understanding of Reilly SN chronology. The seller claims the barrel has J.C. Reilly's name on it though this is unclear. No address looks to be on the barrel rib. And, the barrels were proofed in Birmingham, looks to be post 1855 (possibly reproofed at that time?), something rarely ever seen on Reilly's. "H&S" are stamped on both barrels and the "Damascus" pattern looks a pretty mess.






The advertiser quoted word for word from the Reilly history - probably the version published by Diggory in 2019: I've sent the following request to him:

Sir, I am the author of the Reilly history you've quoted in your ad. It has been much updated and can be read on Doublegunshop.com. I am curious about this barrel set for historical purposes. Is there an address on the rib? (It should be 316 High Holborn). Is the name "Reilly" or "J.C. Reilly?" Better photos would be appreciated. The barrels have Birmingham proofs on them, something not usually seen on a Reilly made gun. Thanks. Gene Williams, McLean Virginia

After a week there has been no word back from the seller. Without further evidence one must assume that 4188 is not a Reilly SN and that the barrel set is post 1855.

Thanks to Stephen Howell for calling this to my attention:

There is a single barrel Reilly advertised on Holts - a .297/.250 side-lever rook rifle.
https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...+++713+&refno=++204441&saletype=

Holts says in the advertisement that the SN is "2943." Holts' own photos, however, shows a Reilly SN 35394 on the gun. It has "E.M. Reilly & Co., 295, Oxford Street, London" on the barrel; the chart originally dated this SN to early 1903:


But there is a problem. Holts' already has published a Reilly SxS shotgun allegedly with SN 35394, a 12 bore without mention of an address on the rib and with very minimal photos, which was postulated to be the last gun built in Feb 1903 at 277 Oxford Street.
https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...++5608+&refno=++149905&saletype=


Obviously there can't be two 35394's. So it's best to believe the eyes and put the rook rifle into this slot and not the SxS which only relies on Holts' advertising accuracy. This is going to require a slight redo of the chart again around the time of the changeover from 277 to 295 Oxford Street, Feb 1903 - May 1904.
-- 35394 (the rook rifle) now moves to May 1904.
-- 35386 (address on barrel not mentioned), a .410 top lever SxS, is now assumed to be the last extant Reilly gun made at 277 Oxford Street Feb 1903. It is owned by "Roger Hill" and was mentioned in one post but no other references.
-- Reilly "3"'s and "5"'s are very similar and have often been confused. So, the 12 bore, Side lock, non extractor SxS advertised by Holts as "35394," has been moved to the 35594 slot (with a question mark). (Holts has mis-advertised Reilly's before).

Holts started off referencing this site's work. About 4 years ago I wrote to them about a couple of misidentifications. They have since gone their own way on dating Reilly's and refuse to use the work at all, alone amongst the other auction houses, or even to answer any queries. The gun industry is filled up with egos and opinions and these can get personal and dogmatic in a hurry and evidence be damned.

Edit: Holt's has actually responded and changed their ad to incorporate the data - the date of the gun and the Reilly SN; but they unfortunately could provide nothing historical back on the 2020 SxS.

Part I of Gene's article has been published in the October The Vintage Gun Journal
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/a-new-history-of-e-m-reilly

Thanks Dr. Drew. Actually there are three articles in VGJ based on the Reilly research:

Reilly dating chart, September 2021:
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/dating-your-reilly-gun-or-rifle

Reilly History part I, August 2019:
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/a-new-history-of-e-m-reilly

Reilly History part II, September 2019
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/the-life-of-reilly

Diggory also has the text of the "Dating Reilly Labels" part of the research (p. 93, 94), which he may publish a bit at a time:

The Histories were edited somewhat by Diggory. It was the original pretty straight forward minimalist manuscript. This original text has been superseded by the 120 page version on P. 94 & 95 of the line which goes much more into detail, partly in response to challenges made to the original. The dating chart is updated on p. 95 of the line (or p. 57 for the complete extant gun list). The History and the Dating Chart are updated on this line when new guns come to light that compel a change .

A "Contents" section is added to the history beginning mid-page 94; a number of photos also have been posted. This extensive edit of the on-lime history is an effort to get around the BBS limit of 10 photos per post and to keep the now 220 page history to 5 BBS internet pages; thus the photo posts have combined lot of pictures to make it somewhat coherent - the print version flows more fluidly and more easily comprehensible:

Contents

Prologue . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7
Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9

I. Holborn Bars : 1814 -1835. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .10
. . .1. Beginnings
. . .2. 1828: First Guns Made at 12 Middle Row, Holborn (Holborn Bars), London
. . .3. Reilly Business Model
. . .4. 1831: Reilly "Gun Maker"

II. 316 High Holborn: 1835 – 1847. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16
. . .5. August 1835: Move to 316 High Holborn-Street
. . .6. 1837: End of Serial Numbered Pistols
. . .7. August 1840: Company Name Changes to "Reilly; Gun Maker”
. . .8. 1840's: Air-guns

III. 502 New Oxford Street: 1847 - 1857. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .22
. . .9. March 1847: Move to 502 New Oxford-Street
. . .10. April-November 1847: Change in Trade Label
. . .11. 1847: Change in the Main-Line Numbering Chronology - 3350 Jumps to 8350
. . .12. 1846-1857: J.C. Reilly 7000 Series Numbering Chronology
. . .13. 1840-1856: Outlier J.C. Serial Numbered Guns
. . .14. Hypothetical J.C. "5500" Serial Number Series Early/mid 1840's
. . .15. December 1847 - 1856: New Label for 502 New Oxford-Street
. . .16. Reilly in the early 1850's: Company Organization
. . .17. 1851 - late 1880's: Reilly 300 Yard Outdoor Shooting Range
. . .18. 1851: Crystal Palace Exposition – the Lefaucheaux Revelation
. . .19. Reilly in the early 1850's: Custom Made Guns and Munitions
. . .20. 1855: Reilly Numbering Bore Sizes Before the 1855 Proof Law
. . .21. 1855: Paris Exposition Universelle
. . .22. September 1857: J.C. Reilly Retires; January 1864 He Passed Away

IV: Break Action Guns in UK: 1854 – 1860. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 36
. . .23. 1852-1856: Break Action, Pin-Fire Guns in UK., PART 1, Hodges & Lang
. . .24. 1852-1856: Break Action, Pin-Fire Guns in UK., PART 2, Reilly & Blanch
. . .25. 1856: Reilly Begins Building Break Action Pin-Fire Guns
. . .26. Mid-1856: Trade/Case Label Changes
. . .27. 1856-1858: Reilly Extant Break Action Pin-Fire Guns
. . .28. 1858-1860: Reilly Develops and Trials Break Action Pin-Fire Guns
. . .29. Observation re "Retailer" vs "Gunmaker" from an Analysis of Extant 1856-58 Reilly Pin-fires

V: Reilly Supports Rifle Innovation: 1854 – 1860. . . . . . . . . . . . .49
. . .30. 1853-1860: Reilly Building Innovative Military Grade Muzzle Loading Rifles
. . . . . . . .1. 1853 Enfield- Rifle-Musket
. . . . . . . .2. General Jacob’s Rifle
. . . . . . . .3. English Schuetzen Percussion Target Rifle
. . .31. 1855-1860: Other Breech-loader Rifles and New Innovations by Reilly
. . . . . . . .1. Terry Patent breech loaders
. . . . . . . .2. Prince Patent Breech Loader
. . . . . . . .3. Westley-Richards “Monkey Tail” Breech Loader. – a Non-event

VI: Reilly 1858 – 1862. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .56
. . .32. August 1858: Opening of 315 Oxford-Street - New Label
. . .33. The Shooting Gallery at 315 Oxford Street
. . .34. August 1858 - April 1861: Four Changes in the Company Name
. . . . . . . .1. “Reilly & Co., Gun Makers” - August 1858 - March 1859
. . . . . . . .2. “E.M. Reilly & Co., Gun Makers” - March 1859 – August 1860
. . . . . . . . . . . -- NEW LABEL: 502 New Oxford St
. . . . . . . . . . . -- NEW LABEL: 315 Oxford Street
. . . . . . . .3. “E.M. Reilly & Co., Gun Manufacturer” (singular) - August 1860 – April 1861
. . . . . . . .4. “E.M. Reilly & Co., Gun Manufacturers" (plural)” - April 1861
. . . . . . . . . . . -- NEW LABEL
.. . . . . . . . . . .-- PRESENTATION LABEL
. . .35. 1859–1900: Reilly Selling to Yeomanry Militia & Gun Clubs at Wholesale Prices
. . .36. 1860-1861: Reilly’s In-House Guns; Using Others’ Patents; Royalty Payments; Making Guns Under License

VII. Characteristics of Reilly guns and products. . . . . . . . . . . . . 63
. . .37. Comments on Reilly Stocks
. . . . . . . .1. French Walnut Stocks:
. . . . . . . .2. In-House Stock Maker
. . . . . . . .3. Straight English stocks for Shotguns Except Big-bore Fowlers
. . . . . . . .4. Pistol Grip for Rifles
. . .38. 1828-1900: Reilly Engraving
. . . . . . . .1. 1820’s-1830’s: Simple “Vine and Scroll”
. . . . . . . .2. 1840’s-1850’s: “Large Scroll” or “English Scroll”
. . . . . . . .3. 1850’s-1860’s: More complex “English Scroll”
. . . . . . . .4. 1860’s” Increasingly Delicate and Intricate “Rose and Scroll”
. . . . . . . .5. 1870’s-1890’s: Tight “Rose and Scroll”
. . . . . . . .6. Wildlife Scenes
. . .39. 1828-1900; Reilly Barrels
. . . . . . . .1. London proofed
. . . . . . . .2. Bored and Finished by Reilly, 1836-47
. . . . . . . .3. Barrel Lengths
. . . . . . . .4. Damascus Patterns
. . . . . . . .5. Barrel Blanks
. . . . . . . .6. Initials on Barrels, 1870’s
. . . . . . . .7. Steel Barrels, 1882
. . .40. Non-Serial Numbered Reilly’s; Reilly Engraving and Marketing Others' Guns
. . .41. Reilly and Pistols
. . .42. Reilly Cartridges and Ammunition
. . .43. Early 1860’s: Reilly and Cutlery, Swords, Bayonets
. . .44. Reilly Accessories

VIII. 1860 – 1867 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .81
. . .45. 1850’s-1895: Reilly Staff; Quality Young Employees
. . .46. 1861: Reilly Manufacturing and Sales
. . .47. 1862: Reilly and the 1862 London Exposition
. . .48. 1863: Attempts to Curry Favor with the British Royal Family
. . .57. 1863-1865: Reilly’s Sporting Gun Business
. . .58. 1863-1873: Pin-Fire vs Center Fire
. . .59. 1866: Reilly and Purdey Kerfuffle

IX: Reilly, Arsenal and the British Army. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .93
. . .49. 1863-1872: Attempts to Win a Military Contract; Reilly Builds Military Rifles
. . .50. 1863-1868: Reilly and the Green Brothers Patent Breech Loader - Sole Manufacturer
. . .51. 1866-1870’s: Reilly Builds (Civilian) Snider-Enfields
. . .52. 1868-1870: Reilly-Comblain Breech Loaders (No Reilly SN) - Sole Manufacturer
. . .53. 1871-1890: Reilly Builds Sporting Martini-Henry Rifles (NSN)
. . .54. 1872-1912: Reilly Sells Other Military Rifles; Swinburn, Gibbs, Soper, Lee-Speed
. . .55. 1869: Explosive Bullets:
. . .56. 1856-1871: An End to Reilly's Arsenal Contract Dreams

X. Reilly - 1868 – 1880; Paris and Attempts to Expand . . . . . . . . . .109
. . .60. 1867-1870, Paris-1: Reilly Takes on Paris, Again; Gun-Maker for Napoleon III
. . .61. February 1868-1870, Paris-2: Reilly Opens 2 rue Scribe, Paris as “E.M. Reilly & Cie”
. . .62. 1868-1897 – Paris-3: New Label
. . .63. 1870 - Paris-4: Fall of Napoleon III; Reilly Prosecuted; Pro-French proclivities
. . .64. 1869-1876: Reilly and the American Market
. . .65. 1868-1876: New Labels and Descriptions
. . .66. 1875-1880: Choke Boring and New Proof Marks
. . .67. 1875-1880: Reilly Paying Royalties for Patent Uses
. . .68. 1878-1880: Paris Exposition; Situation of the Company

XI: Reilly – 1880’s. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .127
. . .69. Early 1880's: Reilly Expansion; 1881 Census; 1000 guns a year
. . .70. 1880: Reilly and the Anson & Deeley Boxlock
. . .71. 1882: Selling Off The Rack
. . .72. Nov 1881: Oxford Street Re-numbered; Change in Labels
. . .73. 1881: Spanish and Dutch Royal Connection
. . .74. 1878-81: Two outlier Trade Labels
. . .75. 1869-1890: Reilly and Pigeon Guns
. . .76. 1882: Reilly and Steel Barrels
. . .77. 1853-1882: Reilly Endorsed by Prominent Explorers and Hunters
. . .78. 1882-1885: International Expositions
. . .79. 1884-1885: Reilly Outlier Label
. . .80. July 1885: Closure of the Paris Branch
. . .81. 1885-1886: Satellite Paris Address at 29 rue du Faubourg, Saint-Honoré
. . .82. July 1885: Change in Reilly Labels
. . .83. Reilly in the Late 1880's

XII. Death of EM Reilly; Decline and Fall 1890-1918. . . . . . . . . . .156
. . .84. 1890: Death of E.M. Reilly and Aftermath
. . .85. Characterizing the Reilly's
. . .86. Mid-1890's: Reilly’s Decline
. . .87. May 1897: Closure of 16, New Oxford Street
. . .88. 1890-1897: Label and Presentation Case Changes
. . .89. 1899: Death of Mary Ann Reilly; Bert Takes Over
. . .90. 1903-1904: Move to 295 Oxford-Street; Trade Label Update
. . .91. 1904-1912: Reilly Reduced to Finishing Guns Bought in the White?
. . .92. June 1912: Bankruptcy
. . .93. 1912-1918: 13 High Street, Marylebone

XIII. Charles Riggs Era; 1922 – 1950. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .173
. . .94. August 1922-circa 1950: Charles Riggs Era

Conclusion. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 180
. . .95. Conclusion

Addendum . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 181
. . .A. Serial Number Dating Chart
. . .B. Explanation of Methodolgy
. . . . . .1) Process
. . . . . .2) Chronological Date Markers
. . . . . .3) SN Guns Associated with Date Markers
. . . . . .4) Sanity Check guns
. . . . . .5) UK Gun Patent Use Numbers Found on Reilly’s
. . .C. Dating Reference Chart for Reilly Trade Labels

After looking for photographs for some time and using map studies, I think I have at least the outline of 502 (16) New Oxford Street identified. It is indeed a substantial building that must have had 8,000 sq. feet of floor space.

That was the quintessential London "factory," perhaps the largest of its kind at the time. Donald Dallas used to walk past the building before it was rebuilt and I've asked him to confirm the preliminary results about its location. Surely someone has tourist photos of that block from the 1960's. (Edit: Donald Dallas has confirmed that this was indeed the area of Reilly's shop at 502 (16) New Oxford Street).

This has been posted on the history:



Today:

A gentleman in Australia has just forwarded information on this magnificent 1850's short-forend sporterized .577 Reilly Enfield rifle converted to a Snider (the contact made courtesy of Diggory). The gun is SN 10377 and was made in summer 1857 shortly before JC Reilly retired and before the opening of 315 Oxford Street. It has the percussion patch box with game engraving, shortened forend, engraving and Damascus barrel of a classic high-end Reilly sporting Enfield of that time. The engraving for that era is particularly well done.

But this one is special. It had both a stalking safety and a match set trigger. And the locks were made by Joseph Brazier. This was clearly a very high-grade Reilly from 1857. (This is now the first identified Reilly using Brazier locks or actions).

It was transformed by Reilly after 1868 into a Snider, making it the second oldest Reilly so far found (10021 being the oldest). The address on the receiver, "EM Reilly & Co., 315 Oxford Street, London & rue Scribe, Paris" (post Feb 1868), was added after the gun was converted (a couple of other similar examples exist). However, on the side plates the name is just "Reilly, London " - classic mid 1850's.

Per the Reilly history Reilly developed a "short stock" for the Enfield which allowed it to be carried in a "normal" sized case. Most extant Reilly Enfields from the mid 1850's with the short sporterized stock, had straight stocks with a trigger guard which aped a pistol grip stock. This rifle has a pistol grip stock. This is so unusual for the 1850's that one speculates it was restocked when converted.

After 1866 Arsenal transformed hundreds of thousands of Enfields into Sniders for the Army using these "screw-in" actions. They only modified Enfields made 1859 or later. When they ran out of guns to convert they began making new ones with steel barrels (See the Reilly history chapter 51.)

The sporting gun world obviously was another story and 10377 with its exquisite barrels (assume they are Damascus - no good photos) and engravings was deemed worth changing by its owner. Reilly advertised his ability to do this work after 1866 (see the Reilly History, chap. 51).

The owner has not checked the proofs - he doesn't want to damage the screw threads - but no doubt they will be London proof marks. Note the "Snider's Patent" Arrow proof on the top of the action - endorsement or maybe patent paid to Arsenal for the Snider action (added to the original Brazier lock).

Gene,

The arrow through S is not a War Department Broad Arrow but Snider’s Trade Mark. Civilian not military.

Very interesting rifle.

Thank you Para. Question. Jacob Snider died penniless before receiving a farthing of compensation for his invention. So who controlled the Trade Mark? Were there royalties paid for use of the action (there are no patent use #'s)? To whom? Any ideas where one might look for answers?

(There are similar questions about the Martini-Henry which have never been adequately answered).
and again thanks - that helps.
Gene Williams

I think I just answered my own question . . .no patent use numbers means no one controlled the patent and only the legal obligations of recording the use of a registered patent exist.

Since map studies are inherently interesting, I am convinced that this is a period photo of 316 High Holborn, JC Reilly's workshop/factory from August 1835 to March 1847 (which included an indoor shooting range).

See the sunlight corridor shining like an arrow down the Southhampton Building alley and the location of Henekey's Wine Shop.

That was a large building. The Reilly's did live on the top floor per the 1841 census. This has been posted to the history and now completes the photographs of the Reilly factories/workshops and shops - at least in outline form.

(Note the dotted line on the map which shows the old "Holborn Bars" tax station, the former location of Reilly from 1814 to 1835. The building was torn down about 1868).