doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion German & Austrian Sporting Guns @ doublegunshop.com Help with identification

I recently acquired a double gun that is clearly marked on one barrel to be a 16 guage smooth bore modified barrel. The markings are 16 alone and 16 in a circle, crown over S, crown over W, two German raven marks and crown over U. No other markings.The other barrel is marked 62,78 and crown over G, crown over U and the same 2 raven stamps. Please excuse me if these are not ravens, but they are the common bird stamps I have seen on many mausers. I have made a chamber cast and from reading other threads I believe it to be 10.75x70R Collath. Bore measures approximately 42 caliber. Just beyond the evident indentation in the chamber at 70mm depth and before the rifling the cast measures at decimal 0.444 diameter, I have not slugged the barrel as of yet as I have not found my pure lead 44 caliber balls. I find no markings to identify it as being proof tested in Nitro, so I believe it to be Black Powder only.

Not being at all familiar with this type of fire arm I would appreciate any help in identifying it to possible maker and age. The lever that breaks the barrels open is mounted under and occupies the majority of the fore stock when closed. It appears to be made from some type of molded material, not wood. The metal has much engraving and the stock is well checkered. The butt stock has a chamber on the under side for 2 each shot shells and rifle shells. There is a badly aged paper attached to the lid that has 62,78 G and 16 G written on it. It has side hammers and two triggers, the rifle trigger being a single set trigger. If needed I can take some pictures and attempt to upload them to this post. I would like to be able to fire this gun, but really think it will be a conversation starter and maybe the first of a future collection. It has the name Hemmerling and Magdeburg stamped between the barrels, but think this was probably the original owner and city where that person resided. Thank you in advance for any guidance in obtaining brass or dies and possible charges that could be used to reload cartridges for this gun.

Welcome on your first posting

Let's start here

https://www.germanhuntingguns.com/19129-2/

Good stuff AT 4:40

Grainger2,
The 16 means it is 16 ga.,the 16 in a circle means it has the standard 16ga. chamber, which is 65 mm (2 1/2-2 9/16") instead of the current American depth of 70mm (2 3/4"). The crown S means it was proofed for shot, the crown W means the barrel is choked, but doesn't indicate the amount of constriction. The crown U under the two Imperial eagles shows it was View proofed after withstanding the Definitive proof. The view proof is basically a detailed inspection after the proof including verification of dimensions. The 62,78 is the bore (not groove or bullet) diameter, expressed in gauge measurement. This would translate to 10,67mm. The Germans used a , where we would use a . in numbers. The crown G means it was proofed to fire a single projectile (bullet). The crown U under two Imperial eagles has the same meaning as on the shotgun barrel. Whether the cartridge for the rifle barrel is 10,75x70 Collath or not depends on a detailed comparison of a chamber cast with dimensions of the cartridge. It must be taken into account that the chamber must be larger than the cartridge to allow chambering. Chamber diameters are commonly .005" larger, but in older rifles are sometimes as much as .015" larger. Black powder rifles commonly have groove diameters larger than actual bullet diameter and sometimes the bore diameter is larger. Obturation of the lead bullet by the black powder was depended on to fit it to the barrel. Personally, I usually use "nitro for black" loads in my old rifles and nitro powder will not always reliably obturate the bullets, especially if cast of a harder alloy. This sometimes requires using special procedures to use bullets otherwise too large to chamber.
The gun was made between early 1893, when the 1891 proof law came into effect and 1912 when the bore diameters started being marked in millimeters in accordance with the 1911 improvements to the 1891 law. Hemmerling in Magdeburg would not likely be the owner, but more likely the marketer of the gun. It was, and still is common for local gunsmiths to guy the guns from manufacturers in various stages of completion and finish them before selling them. These were made "for the trade" and sometimes incorrectly called Guild guns if bought complete from the manufacturer and not marked by the marketer. Horn was commonly used to cover forearms, such as yours, but it could be something else. If you heat a pin until it changes color and touch it to a hidden place on the material, it will smell like burning hair if a natural organic material such as horn or less commonly bone.
I hope this helps.
Mike

Der Ami,
Thank you for setting me straight on the imperial eagles. I lived in Munich while stationed in Augsburg in 1979-80. It was a daily 52 mile trip each way. In the 18 months I was there I was able to see the Austrian Alps 2 times on the drive. The whole country was beautiful and the Beer...Whew. None better in my opinion. Anyway back to my dilemma. My cast shows the distance from the outside of the base to the rifling is 2.89. Rim is .528, base is .483 and width at lip or shoulder is .468. The shoulder is .20 from the start of the rifling or grooves and the smooth portion in this area is .437 diameter. My digital calipers are on the fritz so I am using my old reliable dial calipers so I don't have it in Metric measurements. I had dropped a 9.3x74R into the chamber and the rim seemed to fit well. I have thought about trying to find some 45 basic brass, anneal it and lube up with resizing lube and driving it in to make the cartridges or see if I could fireform with the 9.3x74R. I have neither brass on hand and it seems that both might have to come from Europe, or Australia. Did the Germans ever use paper patching? I believe the material on the lever is likely horn. It has that kind of shading changes throughout. I had not thought of that. Again thanks for your help.

Grainger2,
I lived in Wuerzburg during the time you were stationed in Augsburg, and I agree with you about the whole area, but I would add the food along with the beer. During my first tour (71-73) I attended the Facilities Engineer Management Course, 6weeks TDY, in Ober Ommergau(?) and that is one of my favorite areas in the whole world. Assuming the dimensions you cite are from a chamber cast and are, therefore larger than the cartridge, my guess is that 9.3x74R cases would be the best bet. They would be much easier than trying to size 45 basic cases (or 45-120) and they would likely be easier to find than the 45s as well. I suggest you take a look at Stanton Hillis' thread on Annealing brass in the DoubleGuns BBS@doublegunshop.com in this site. It is the first forum here and the thread is not too old. Also, I find the website MUNICION.ORG-Codigos D.W.M. very handy when trying to ID a cartridge. The site is in Spanish, but can be converted to English, if necessary. Numbers are numbers anyway and this site has drawings of all the old cartridges. They have updated the site, but I find it easier to go to "old.municion.org" by clicking on the bar at the top of the page. I think Hornaday makes 9.3x74R cases, as well as Norma, S+B, and RWS. If you can't find any, PM me and maybe I can make some suggestions. Germans did use paper patched bullets, but they were not very common. Swaged bullets were more common. If you use 9.3x74R cases and have access to a 410 single barrel shotgun, Stanton Hillis' fireforming procedure, using shot for the final forming load should save you time.
Good luck.
Mike

Mike,
Thanks for all of the information. I have been reloading since the mid 70's and broadening the variety ever since. My first attempts were with the old Lee hand loader setup and a leather hammer in 30/30. Still a very accurate option over factory rounds. I really like high velocity wildcats and odd rounds which leads to the need to alter other common brass to fill my need. I have used the chamber casting with both wax and carasafe to identify the proper rounds. So far all have been more modern rounds, so I am lacking, I guess, in reading this particular casting. I believe what I am looking at fits the 10.75 colloth, and assumed it should have the case length to match the ridge in the casting which is 70mm however looking at data on the 10.75x65 Colloth I see a case length just over 2-1/2 inches with a cartridge length just over 3 inches. The 3 inches is near the distance to the lands of rifling, so I believe this to be correct. Do you know the importance of the ridge or is it cut plenty deep to allow stretching of the brass over time? Do you believe I have identified the correct round or do you think it may be another obsolete round? These are the things that cause me sleepless nights.
Thanks
Tim

Skeettx,
Thank you for your reply. I have watched the videos and enjoyed all I have found so far.

Tim,
The problems with identifying old cartridges vary with the reason you need the identity. The hardest is if you need the identity for a cartridge collection. There can be several cartridges that have the same or similar general basic identifying dimensions but have different nominal designations. Also, there are cartridges that have different nominal designations, although they are precisely the same as others, because one manufacturer didn't want to use another's name. Subtle differences in case form, rim thicknesses,etc, may differentiate different collectable cartridges. Collath cartridges are often the same or very similar to others. If your interest is being able load ammo for and shoot an old rifle, a precise nominal designation is not necessary; after all, you will not be able to buy it at the local "Mall Mart" anyway. As long as you can find or make cases and bullets that will fit, or at least work, you can call the cartridges anything you want. The "ridge" may be where the chamber stops and the lead starts, therefore may establish the maximum case length, but not the minimum or even the normal case length. Using cases longer than the maximum may result in pressure spikes by failure to release the bullet, this is more important than bullet diameter. If you have cases fireformed to fit the chamber and a way to size the neck, it doesn't matter if you don't call it anything, or if you call it 10.75x65R Collath,or 10.75 X65R LK Express, or even 10.75 Hemmerling. I think you have enough information now to sleep well, especially after you "slug" the barrel. BTY, if you can find a lead ball smaller than 44 caliber, you can flatten it enough to use it for slugging the barrel.
Mike

Mike,
I agree with everything you state. I have a 270 Gibbs so I know there are many variations that have been done by gunsmiths over time sometimes to be different or improve ballistics using some other rounds brass as a start. If I can't ever get positive confirmation of this round, I may call it a 62.78 Mike. What are the chances of coming up with data of every known rimmed cartridge produced in Germany in the time era that this gun was made? I see there is possibly one book, out of production, that may have this data. Thank you for all of your guidance. Merry Christmas. Tim

Tim
I'm guessing the book you mean is "European Sporting Cartridges" by Dixon. I was lucky enough to find one, but you are right I believe they are out of print. I find it is very informative. The website I mentioned, Municion.ORG, is about as informative and is available at the touch of a finger. BTW, the 62.78 proof has nothing to do with the cartridge, it was applied by the proof house after they measured the bore (not groove or bullet) diameter with "plug gauges". It just means the barrel passed a 62,78 gauge but would not pass the next size gauge(58,50 -10,92mm), so the bore was somewhere between 10.67mm and 10.92mm. This doesn't tell us much about the cartridge, but it is all we have to go on until a chamber cast is made and the barrel is slugged ( unless the chamber cast is long enough to show the barrel also). Unless you find something that changes your mind, your initial ID of 10.75X65 Collath is as good as any.
Mike

Mike,
Does the Dixon book have dimensions for the 10.75x75R Collath? or very similar?

Tim,
The 10.75x65R Collath is shown on page 72 in Dixon. The dimensions listed are: bullet diameter 10.56mm, case length 65.0mm, rim diameter 13.20mm, base diameter11.90mm, neck diameter 11.18mm. Cartridge listed from about 1900 to about 1905.
The discussion of this cartridge on page 73 says it appears to be a slightly necked version of the 11.2x65R Collath, which has the same dimensions as the 10.75, except the bullet diameter is 11.20mm, the case length is 64.85mm, and the neck diameter is 11.80mm. The 11.20 was available from about 1900 to about 1915. The discussion of the 11.2 on page 73 says it appears to be interchangeable with the 11.15x65R LK Express. If you check the rim recess and it indicates a significantly thicker rim than similar cartridges let me know and I will check another possibility.
Mike

I recently purchased; I believe to be a French 16-gauge sxs gun. I've done a little research and noticed on the barrel flats there is no "65" marked. Does this mean it would not be a 2 1/2 shot shell size? I've been shooting 2 1/2 RST but would like to shoot some Boss 2 9/16 bismuth for hunting grouse on federal/state land.

thanks for any help on this.

If you have a 2 1/2" chamber, you would be just fine shooting 2 9/16" shells out of it. The 1/16th extra won't make a big difference to the pressures generated. Just make sure the loads you are shooting are suitable for the age and condition of your gun.

Savysplace,
There are others here more familiar with French proof laws, than I. By the German proof law, a normal chamber would be designated by a 16 in a circle. A nonstandard chamber ( ie. 2 3/4" or 3.00") would need the chamber length added. When the normal chamber is designated, there is no need for a 65, since it is understood. I suspect the French law is the same, except they may use a Diamond, rather than a circle.
Mike

Mike,
Sorry for the long delay but, I think you may have found something. I finally slugged the barrel as well as re-casted the chamber to include some of the barrel. The bore is .435 or 11.15mm. The rim is 13.36mm, base is 12.28mm, neck is 11.86mm. There is a slight ridge in the chamber that would allow a case length of 68.90mm. The length of chamber to lands is 71.84mm. Just beyond the slight ridge at 68.90mm is a smooth portion approximately 3mm long with diameter of 11.3mm. Could be slight neck. With digital calipers the bore reading would vary from 11.1mm to 11.2mm with 11.15mm being the most consistent reading. I got the same reading on the slugged ball as on the cast of the barrel. All other readings should be really close but, I do understand there may be some slight variations. Any further help is much appreciated.

Tim,
After studying your dimensions, I believe the most likely cartridge is the 11.15x65R LK express, considering that the chamber will be larger than the cartridge, and that the LK express was very popular. Two other possibilities are 11x65 Collath and 11.15 Stahl Express. While both these have a bullet diameter slightly larger than the dimension given for the "slug", it seems that both were available with the Tesco express style bullet. This is the style bullet used in 9.3x72R and 8,15x46R ammo because it can be used in barrels of varying diameters without unduly raising pressure.
Mike

Mike,
Thank you for all the trouble. I have to ask where is the best place to obtain information on and to study this style bullet as I will likely have to make my own mold and alter the bullets to work?

The Tesco type Epress bullet was a jacketed bullet that was/is available for 9.3x72R and 8.15x46R, but I don't believe it is any longer available in the diameter you need. I believe you would be best served by a cast bullet weighing from 235-255 grains with a shank about .002" over groove diameter and a blunt nose section of bore(not groove or bullet) diameter to half a thousandth inch less. These are general dimensions, and any custom mold maker will be happy to help you work out the specifics.
Mike