doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Does this look like a Westley to you?

Looking at some auctions for another Westley to add to the collection when I came across this. Company knows guns so I believe what they say but it sure doesn't look like any Westley I've ever seen before. Company says that Westley Richards is engraved on the rib and locks. I've seen similar style locks but always on lower end Birmingham made guns.

Some of the guns they sold under their name were no doubt made for them in the Birmingham trade, particularly those where the serial number was Pre-fixed with a T.

Their Martini rifles made for Zud Afrika Republic were built on Francotte made actions with removable lock work.

If they put their name on it they must have considered it of merchantable quality.

Cannot see the pics, Mike.

Doesn't look like one I have ever seen either.

Maybe someone on here has a copy of the Westley Richards book for reference:

https://www.westleyrichards.com/us/in-pursuit-of-the-best-gun-1812-2012-2nd-edition

Looks more like a W&C Scott.
JR

I've seen a lot of Clayboughs with locks shaped as such.

I think that's a W.C. Scott. With the addition to the loaded window it became their "triplex action" that they made for a number of gunmakers including H&H. Here is my Reilly side lever with its twin, former Terry Buffum's gun, which is up in Massachusetts someplace.



Better picture of the Scott Triple grip action:



Reilly with the Scott action without the window:

It's not the same lock shape. The "WR" is flat on the bottom and one continuous curve around the back end of the lock.

Looks like a Clabrough built gun to me.

if you notice the photos posted by argo44, both show actions with the forward edge of the locks into the bar being much shorter than those of the supposed wr gun (the contours of argo's pictures form almost an S shape from the rear of the fence into the forward edge of the bar). but, that having been said, i have seen guns with both long and short bar shapes, that i was convinced were both triplex grip scott's actions.

several things to look for; first and foremost - look at the top of the action, for the two screws that secure the trapdoor to access the original scott's screw grip mechanism; second, look for other telltale scott's traits....such as, the gas venting work on the standing breech, the scott's forearm release, etc., and pay attention to serial numbers. i've seen guns with two sets of numbers - one from the "maker", and another that position the action smack dap in the triplex grip era of scott's production....scott's records for production are pretty well nailed down - and are posted herein.

i have seen guns that the lock shapes are not the same as those in argo's photos - and were on obviously triplex grip scott's actions. i suspect that the contours shown above were somewhat an inhouse style by w & c scott - another form of fancy-back shaping.

best regards,

tom

I wonder if it's a W. Richards and they've interpreted that incorrectly.

All makers except Boss seemed to be willing to bring in any gun for the customer and finish it and put their name on it. If Remington brought in a Model 21 and finished it and put their name on it we would be horrified but I cannot count the number of gun clearly made by one maker that was sold with another's name of it. H&H seemed to shot and regulated a lot of low grade box locks, but they all have that H&H name on their sides.

I own a couple of the H&H. References I have indicate that Holland had three levels. Holland & Holland, H&H Shot and Regulated, and H&H Shot and Inspected. There may be more.

Lately there have been several T-prefixed serial number WRs for sale, all advertised as “pigeon” guns. One in particular was a very high conditioned 32” gun. They all appeared to me to be Scott made guns. How would such a thing be valued relative to an in-house made WR?

The photos posted by Argo44 are all Scott & Baker 716 patent and the original post's gun is not that. I suspect that it is an action bought in by WR from elsewhere in the Birmingham trade and finished by them. No problem with that, horses for courses!

Thanks Toby. And you are one of the very few gun sellers/restorers/historians, who actually posts the patents present on your guns. I think though that the patent is 1878 - 761. . not 716. Obviously a typo.

http://www.heritageguns.co.uk/Bales%2020%20SLNE%20264/Bales%2020%20SLNE%20264%20Details.htm