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ellenbr Offline OP
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Posting for Bill. A German Hahn DR. Not sure if it has 2 French single set triggers or one? If just one, then it began life as something else. Too the platform just looks older than the WWI era stamps.


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Unique Belgian/French type Crown of Script Character.
The tubeset knitter looks to have been „EE“ as in Emil Eckoldt but they seems to have been overstamped in a masking effort?

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Raimey
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Raimey, Thanks for your posting and explanation. Both triggers are set triggers. An earlier poster read the 60 stamp on the barrel flat as a serial number. Is chamber length likely? Present chambers are long for the 444. Because the groove stamp, 10.5, was originally 10.3, does that indicate the rifling has been recut? The stamp you read as EE is actually RS. Again, thanks for help.


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Raimey,
Did the owner of this rifle have a chamber cast made or did he take the word of the person that sold it to him, who may have just tried cartridges until he found one that "went into the chamber". The 444 Marlin can easily be confused for the 11.15x60R LK Express.
The 444 case has about the same head diameter as the 11.15x60R, the rim diameter is a little less than the 11.15, since it is a simi-rimmed case. The 444 case is about 57mm long, which is only around 3mm shorter than the 11.15. A 444 cartridge would likely easily but closely fit into an 11.15x60R LK Express chamber. ( see Dixon p.66)
Mike

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ellenbr Offline OP
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All very true Ford & my sentiments exactly. He should be along shortly but he gives the groove diameter to be 0.429". Too with him being the custodian & having it in hand, he gives the >>10,5<< stamp is actually is an overstamping of >>10,3<<.

To my knowledge there wasn't or isn't a chamber cast.

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Raimey, when you speak to him, some considerations- The number on the barrel flat is measured by pin gauges that are in 0.1 mm, so a "slug" measured with a mic might be a couple thousandths of an inch off that dimension. If the barrel has an od number of grooves, measuring the groove diameter with common tools can create an error, using various methods to approximate the grove diameter of an odd number of grooves can also result in an error, albeit a smaller one. Old barrels often have "tapered grooves which results in the groove diameter at the breech end being a couple to a few thousandths of an inch larger than at the muzzle end. All these things should be considered.
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Sorry, I forgot to mention that the previous owner did have a chamber cast made and that the dimensions, save for chamber length, were generous at the base for the 444 Marlin. I've fired the rifle using 265 gr gas check bullets and mild charges of 4198. Results are fairly good. The cases don't expand at the base with these loads. I think neck sizing will suffice.

Last edited by rocky mtn bill; 05/30/23 01:45 PM.

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ellenbr Offline OP
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Yes, >>60<<(mm implied) is most certainly the chamber length @ time proof during WWI. How long is the water-table / action flats?

>>RS<< would denoted effort my master tubeset knitter Robert Schlegelmilch. I guess the >>R.S.<< is just poorly stamped.

I still do not recognize the Crowned German Script X??

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Raimey, Measuring from the breech face to the center of the hinge pin, I get 2.1".


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Bill,
You can make full length cases from 9.3x74R, but you would likely nave to anneal them pretty far back and fireform them several times to get them fully formed. 7x65R would also work but you would have different problems. I don't like to expand necks before fire forming due to the necks coming out uneven, but if you don't in this case, you would lose too many cases due to split necks. The 65 mm case is likely long enough to take the necessary trimming and still come out 60mm long. You can also use brass 410 cases, but everyone has 7x65R and 9.3x74R cases on hand and I don't know anyone that actually has brass 410 cases in their "pile".
Mike

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ellenbr Offline OP
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Just some notes in passing, the bullet weight used for the proof effort was a Copper Jacketed bullet of about 278 grains. And it wears some antiquated strikers.

The measurement of the length of the water-table confirms my suspicions that it is indeed a longer version. Most German SxSs had a length of 48 cm whilst H.A. Lindner-Charles Daly had a length of 56 mm and his sidelocks @ 62mm. So in comparison that's 2.2" for Lindner's wares to 2.1" for the subject longarm. Too it has what looks to be the Treble >>Bump<< on the forend-iron. H.A. Lindner married into the Triebel Klan by marrying Hedwig Triebel on April 27th of 1877. Now I am not saying it was sourced from Lindner by any means but the Triebel forends have that bump & longer water-table frames lie w/ H.A. Lindner, whose son Ernst Lindner(06.07.1883-16.06.1915) fell in fierce fighting w/ the Brits in mid 1915 leaving widow Gertrud Schorr Lindner to occupy the premises till 1948. Maybe post 1915 H.A. Lindner had a Garage Sale of Gestecks & some enterprising mechanic picked up an Old Lindner Hammergun Gesteck for a song & cobbled together a DR. Remember too that R.S./Robert Schlegelmilch was the prime tubeset knitter for H.A. Lindner. Just rampant & wild speculation but then again there's a lot of hammenstance with the Hahn Doppelbüchse??? Considering the above, that too would narrow the date to 1916-1923 and with the bullet weight & type on the side of the tube, I would narrow the date to 1916-1919.

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ellenbr Offline OP
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It is NOT engraved by Fritz Heimbeck by the way........


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The idea that the rifle was assembled from earlier obsolete parts would account for the lack of a serial number and maker's name. And speaking of engraving, it's a peculiar mixture. Amongst the foliage is a rabbit, a dog, a duck, and a deer. I like possibility of a first-rate barrel specialist. Workmanship throughout is very good. The fit and finish are flawless.


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Bill,
Guns made "for the trade" often didn't have the marketer's name and serial number added. I wouldn't give much significance to that. To help me with a similar gun, can you describe or show what makes the extractor work?
Mike

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Mike, the extractor works off a fixed arm at the rear of the forearm iron just ahead of the knuckle. I hope this helps. Let me know. Regards, Bill


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ellenbr Offline OP
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Originally Posted by rocky mtn bill
The idea that the rifle was assembled from earlier obsolete parts would account for the lack of a serial number and maker's name. And speaking of engraving, it's a peculiar mixture. Amongst the foliage is a rabbit, a dog, a duck, and a deer. I like possibility of a first-rate barrel specialist. Workmanship throughout is very good. The fit and finish are flawless.


What else would you expect from a Lindner Gesteck(Parts Kit) with Schlegelmilch knitting the tubes & possibly doing the rifle work?? Do not forget that times were difficult during The First Major World Disagreement of the 20th Century in Europe and things were going to get worse.

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I seem to recall that Robert Schlegelmilch of Meiningen departed this Life in 1924? This fact coupled with the loss of many mechanics in the First Great Disagreement in Europe forced mechanization to be engaged. And the likes of the Boys Kelber fully embraced mechanization although they divorced in 1927 I think & both went their separate ways never to look back. But Robert Schlegelmilch just had to be a descendent of Kaspar Schlegelmilch of Suhl, master tube mechanic who made tubes for luxury weapons and began rolling his own in 1818. Probably the longest running tube makers. But all this mechanization just took some Soul away from the firearm.

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Bill,
There is no photo of the forearm iron, to you think you could send one to Raimey for posting? The similar rifle in question has a spring installed which not only doesn't seem original, it doesn't work with fired cases. What you described seems to be positive extraction.
Mike

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......>> I've attributed it to Charles Harvey for his forend fastener British patent 1793 of 1866. I believe he was working at Wilkinson Sword or Rigby at the time. The Vienna contingent of Austrian gunmakers were quite fond of it.<<

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=267208&page=all

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Bill,
Thanks for the photo.
Mike

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Mike, Thanks to you and Raimey. It's been very informative.


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ellenbr Offline OP
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No worries Bill. Can you tell us if it has a menacing muzzle or not?

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Raimey, Menacing muzzle?? Only if loaded and pointing at you. Cheers, Bill


Bill Ferguson
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