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Forums10
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Mar 29th, 2024
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Joined: May 2023
Posts: 18 Likes: 1
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 18 Likes: 1 |
Bob,
As I recall, it was 50/50 solder. The Monoblock/barrel solder joint was large enough that it was plenty strong enough to hold them together. My experience with this was in the mid 1970s to early 1980s. I highly suspect that now they would use a high strength glue such as Loc-Tite bearing fixer (I think it is their #662 or 668). I recently lost a friend that converted double shotguns to double rifles, using this glue. Due to a mistake, he had the need to break the bond of this glue and he had to heat the barrels/block to bright red to do it. With regard to machinery, you would be surprised how little was required. My German gunsmith friends used only a small "speed lathe" that had a shop-made bed extension when replacing barrels using the old ones to make the "block" ( hakenstuck?). This lathe had no carriage or lead screw. This was before reunification and if they made a new barrel set for an East German gun that no blank sets were available for (Merkel, etc.) The used a small horizonal spindle mill that had a vertical spindle attachment installed. The main "tool" was their experience and skill. To put the parts( monoblock/barrel tubes, ribs) together, they sent them to the barrelmaker( rohermaker?) who had the appropriate equipment (oven). Even though my friend was qualified to fit the new barrels up, he usually called another friend in to do it. This fitter used mostly files and scrapers to fit the barrels in. He filed like a machine and worked right on top of thousands of dollars' worth of engraving without "missing a lick". His main equipment was also his skill.
If you take the project on and mess it up so badly that you can't sell the parts for scrap iron, you still would not have lost enough to outweigh the fun and experience you would have gained.
Mike To be clear: When you say mono block you are referring to a part that completely encircles part of the chambers of the barrels right? If so, depending on the shape of the barrels mechanical wedging might be taking all the force, and the solder just keeps them from falling out if you bump the barrels with the action open. Sure there is more surface area, but a tapered fit is incredibly strong. I might own a file or 40, but I try very hard not to need them. That being said I use them at the lathe every day. Well everyday that I use one of the lathes. I hate file work. I recall my dad making me try to file hardened steel a gazillion years ago. The parts I'd make for this would likely be 4140HT (because I have it on hand), and while it is fileable its not fun if you have to remove much.
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Bob La Londe - CNC Molds N Stuff
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a real machinist!
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,461 Likes: 207
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,461 Likes: 207 |
Bob,
Yes, that is what I mean, the barrel blanks are inserted from the front and there is a "shoulder" that bumps against the block. The "tenon"(for want of a better word) including the chamber is straight, not tapered. Here, some people thread the parts, but this is not necessary. I am a poor filer and am in awe of the abilities of the gunmakers in Germany, at that time. The barrel fitter I mentioned even polished with a file. It was a very fine cut file and he loaded it with chalk, which he oiled. If they were making a new gun, they did a significant part of the receiver shaping with chisels as well as files. When I go into the websites of these same companies, the sons and grandsons of the ones I knew have all gone to CNC machines for most of the work. Files would still be used for a lot of the finishing work. I always wondered how they fit the side clips on pre-war guns and one of my friends told me he was an apprentice in his grandfather's factory (Meffert) in 1938, with the job of peining the side clips. His description told me the barrels were machined in the area and the actual side clips were formed by moving the metal into the area by hammer. Now it makes sense.
Mike
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Joined: May 2023
Posts: 18 Likes: 1
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 18 Likes: 1 |
I bought a couple barrels the other day. They are NOT setup for this and they already each (single barrels) have some hardware on them for some other gun, but they look like they were pre machined to fit into a mono block. Okay, I bought them because they were cheap. Cheaper than the action. They are a little shorter than I would like at 23 inches and change, but I once hunted birds with a guy who was using a choked 18.5in pump. He did okay. I hope they have some kind of choke, but if not I guess I'll spend way more money than they are worth to turn, ream, and thread for choke tubes. I hope I can get the prefit hardware off of them and not look to bad, or at least position it to hide under the forehand. I'm not sure from the description if they have even been chamber reamed. It might be time to start hunting for a 16ga chamber reamer to go with my 20.
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Bob La Londe - CNC Molds N Stuff
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a real machinist!
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,461 Likes: 207
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,461 Likes: 207 |
Bob,
It's not for sale, but I have a 16 ga. long forcing cone reamer. If you get to that point, you can arrange to borrow it. BTW, One of the best decisions I made was having Heym make a set of open choke 60cm (23" and change) barrels for my 16 ga o/u. I had them made for Bob Whites but use them for all small game. I wouldn't worry about choke tubes.
Mike
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Joined: May 2023
Posts: 18 Likes: 1
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 18 Likes: 1 |
Bob,
It's not for sale, but I have a 16 ga. long forcing cone reamer. If you get to that point, you can arrange to borrow it. BTW, One of the best decisions I made was having Heym make a set of open choke 60cm (23" and change) barrels for my 16 ga o/u. I had them made for Bob Whites but use them for all small game. I wouldn't worry about choke tubes.
Mike That's downright generous of you. I might take you up on it. It might also be an opportunity to see if a D-Bit reamer would do for those of us who might only ream one or two of something. Yeah, probably not, but I'll ponder on it a while.
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Bob La Londe - CNC Molds N Stuff
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a real machinist!
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,461 Likes: 207
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,461 Likes: 207 |
Bob,
D bit (we used to call them half reamers) reamers are slow but work well. I have made a couple with satisfaction; you have to watch the "relief" at the diameter changes. You also have to grind them in half (not the pilot) after hardening, to prevent warping.
Mike
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Joined: May 2023
Posts: 18 Likes: 1
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 18 Likes: 1 |
Bob,
D bit (we used to call them half reamers) reamers are slow but work well. I have made a couple with satisfaction; you have to watch the "relief" at the diameter changes. You also have to grind them in half (not the pilot) after hardening, to prevent warping.
Mike I've made a few d-bit cutters out of solid carbide using a diamond wheel. No warping. LOL. Yeah, I know. A piece of carbide big enough for a 16ga reamer would probably cost as much as a finished HSS reamer. Also my little TC grinder doesn't have the range to make a tool that big. I do have a surface grinder, but that's not as easy (for me) to make round cutting tools on. Okay, maybe mostly because I just haven't used it that way. I'm having visions of setups dancing in my head like its Christmas Eve. Dang-it. Now I want to do it just to see if I can. One thing I found is sometimes I just have to get in there and grind a relief by hand anyway. I made an 18 degree (144 degree included angle) chamfer tool the other day, and that was the only way I could remove the heel easily. Like back relieving the heel free handing drill bits on the bench grinder.
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Bob La Londe - CNC Molds N Stuff
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a real machinist!
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,461 Likes: 207
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,461 Likes: 207 |
The thing about half reamers is you can make them with simple equipment. I made my first one using a lathe, propane torch, a magnet, my wife's oven( she wasn't at home), a bench grinder, micrometer, and stones. Later, I made a TP grinder, which helped a lot. I'm sure a propane torch wouldn't be hot enough to make a 16 ga reamer. Ruined carbide tools can be very helpful in making other tools, such as boring bars, half reamers (shanks are already useable diameters), etc. Diamond wheels are great if you have them, but absent them, a "green wheel" will work. Since my shop was in the basement, I used water hardening steel to not generate oil quenching smells in the house. A happy wife means a happy life(57 years going on 58). It helps if you have a friend that owns a scrap yard in an area with several machine shops that bring "drops" and old cutters/tooling in, the drops are often the ends that still have the identifying color code intact.
Mike
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Joined: May 2023
Posts: 18 Likes: 1
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 18 Likes: 1 |
Of course you can cut your rough profile ahead of time on the lathe too when working with W1/silver steel.
Unfortunately, I pretty much have to buy all of my metal from metal vendors.
Both fortunately, and unfortunately I have lots of broken carbide end mills in a bucket for making tools out of.
I do have a project I want to make that is a nice small scale practice analog. A common mold type I make is hinged at one end for casting low temperature melt alloys. Usually I do all the complicated machining on one of the CNC Mills, and then I do basic stuff like drill and tap for handles and drill for the hinge pins on one of the manual milling machines. The hinge pins generally take three drills. The friction size, the free slip size, and a chamfer. The bosses that form the hinge have a uniform thickness size and a multi diameter drill might be faster than sticking three different drills in a chuck on both sides of the mold. Ideally it would be a twist drill, but a d-bit might still be marginally faster than stopping the spindle and changing drills three times for each side of the mold. If it works out at all I might get ahold of rogue .systems Inc and ask them to make me some custom split point drills in carbide.
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Bob La Londe - CNC Molds N Stuff
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a real machinist!
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Joined: May 2023
Posts: 18 Likes: 1
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: May 2023
Posts: 18 Likes: 1 |
I am curious to know how many people are actually interested in this thread and hoping to see build notes and build pictures if/as I progress through it.
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Bob La Londe - CNC Molds N Stuff
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a real machinist!
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