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#630238 05/18/23 11:12 AM
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I bought a 12 gauge gun for 2" shells. Where can I buy the shells? Or do I have to start reloading again?...Geo

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I always wanted one of those but have no idea now as to how to feed it, other than handloading. RST did load for them, as did many others (Gamebore was one).

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Doesn't Federal make them??


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Perry: They might, but they're mostly for law enforcement so 00 buck would be the standard load. Good catch tho...

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Originally Posted by Geo. Newbern
I bought a 12 gauge gun for 2" shells. Where can I buy the shells? Or do I have to start reloading again?...Geo

Welcome to the club. What did you buy?

I also bought another one this weekend also.

I am reloading for my ammo. and I don't think there is any viable alternative. There are some rumors of factory loads in the recent past, but it seems they may have been high pressure, and not what you want for these guns. Reloading is pretty simple, however, and I have made up jigs to do most of the chores quite easily using once-fired discarded cheap 2.75" hulls.


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Originally Posted by Geo. Newbern
I bought a 12 gauge gun for 2" shells. Where can I buy the shells? Or do I have to start reloading again?...Geo

Aguila makes "mini" shell in 12 gauge, but I don't know if they are low pressure: https://www.aguilaammo.com/products/12-gauge-minishell-7.5-shot


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There are Aguila 2” cartridges loaded with 7.5 shot.
Just saw some.


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Brent, I bought a Powell from Birmingham. <https://auctions.thegunrunner.com/l...side-shotgun-26-barrels-letter-hard-case> I'm getting recoil sensitive in my old age and the 2" alternative sounds good to me for doves and quail.

I don't think the Aguilas are appropriate due to high pressure, but I'll check further into that. I think RST sold them for a while so maybe they can scrounge up a case or so. They do not have them advertised on their site...Geo

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I saw that one. Interesting gun. You got a good price. I bought one from Poulin's.

These little guns have a bit more recoil than you might think, because they are so light weight.

If you decide that reloading is in your future, shoot me an email and I'll send you the info I've amassed and can show you what I've been doing, although I've just gotten started.

GLS has been a huge help in getting me headed down the right path. KYJon and a few other has also been helpful. There is a small cult following for these things.

Last edited by BrentD, Prof; 05/18/23 01:05 PM.

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Brandt professor of the department Of redundancy department

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BrentD,professor[ "There are some rumors of factory loads in the recent past, but it seems they may have been high pressure, and not what you want for these guns."]

This one was built in 1956, so I would think any CIP load would be alright...Geo

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What a sweet price on a 2-inch gun, great buy Mr. Newbern! Those Aguilas sound very interesting. I may need to start paying closer attention...

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From what I understand the current 1 3/4" shells are not low pressure, especially the Federals. I've shot the the different brands, Federal, Aguila, and Champion and they all have some pretty good recoil. I converted a Mec Jr. for reloading 2" shells and it works great. You can buy the short shell conversion, but that is for 1 3/4" shells so the legs have to be shortened. It's easy enough to make your own raised platform for the Mec Jr. I'd sent in to Precision Reloading for testing a number of 2 inchers to be tested and have come up with some good low pressure fornulas for 3/4 and 7/8 shot loads using Clays, Bullseye and Titewad because that what I have. Velocities all in the 1200 range and with the exception of Titewad where the pressure is higher, the pressures are about 7200 for the 7/8 loads and 5500 for the 3/4. I'm using a Ballistic x12x gas seal, 3/8" waxed fiber and either a roll crimp or 6 point fold. I don't have a web hosting picture site at the moment so I can't post any of these but I'd be happy to send anyone the five of my best.

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Not recent but likely relevant

Aguila 12 minishell 1 3/4″ 5/8 oz. shot - 1175 fps - 11,000 psi

Federal 12 1 3/4′ 15/16 oz. shot - 1145 fps - 9,500 psi

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I have been getting more recoil sensitive also at 70 yrs old, but forgive me the 2" gun isn't the solution. Light loads relative to the gun weight and a proper gun fit is the solution. 12 ga light 7/8 oz loads in a 7 lb gun are a big help. I also shoot factory 20 ga 7/8 oz loads in a 7 1/2 lb gun. I had a big shooting friend years ago that went through at least 6 2" guns.


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Those should spank you pretty good in a 5-lb gun. At least the hulls might be reloadable? FWIW: I never thought of 2-inch guns as being soft recoiling; the whole nature of very-light guns means that you'll be feeling some recoil. I suspect that light loads in a slightly heavier gun would work far-better in taming recoil. Another alternative is a semi-auto.

Last edited by Lloyd3; 05/18/23 02:48 PM.
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Originally Posted by Lloyd3
Those should spank you pretty good in a 5-lb gun. At least the hulls might be reloadable?.

The gun may not be...


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George, Gil Stacy is pretty into those 2" guns. He might have some useful info for you.


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What a great price for a great gun. I was looking at the gun but just couldn't get around the adjustable stock. Congratulations.

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Courtesy of Borderbill and Precision Reloading

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Thank you, Eightbore and others recognizing the favorable selling bid on the 2" gun. However there is a commission or buyer's premium which is not reflected in the for sale ad I posted. Still a deal I'm satisfied with. I figure the present lack of available ammo for the 2" guns kept others out of the bidding on this one.

I actually am looking forward to playing with the adjustable stock. Maybe I'll figure out my personal gun fit requirements. Unfortunately at 75 I'm afraid they are going to continue to change as I age...Geo

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Originally Posted by Geo. Newbern
Thank you, Eightbore and others recognizing the favorable selling bid on the 2" gun. However there is a commission or buyer's premium which is not reflected in the for sale ad I posted. Still a deal I'm satisfied with. I figure the present lack of available ammo for the 2" guns kept others out of the bidding on this one.

I actually am looking forward to playing with the adjustable stock. Maybe I'll figure out my personal gun fit requirements. Unfortunately at 75 I'm afraid they are going to continue to change as I age...Geo

Oh there were bidders aplenty over on Poulin's. The one I bought went for quite a bit more and another with barrels I did not like went for a lot more than I thought is should. But that's an interesting gun and it would nice to know more about it.


Drew, I would consider those pressures to be marginally high for one of these. These are all Skimin and Wood barreled actions and there seems to be a consensus that under 8k is the place to be. Also, after talking to Tom Armbrust and the Tech at Precision, it is reasonable to suspect that pressures in a 2" gun could be substantially more than the test gun. There are loads well under 7k that can be built.


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Why would the pessures be sustantially higher in the actual 2" gun than the test gun?

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Originally Posted by Borderbill
Why would the pessures be sustantially higher in the actual 2" gun than the test gun?


I had a long chat with Tom Armbrust about this. Test guns are all at least 2.75" chambers and maybe 3" for 12 gauge guns. There is no 2" chambered test gun (but there is a guy that will make one for ~$900). Thus, the load is jumping at least 3/4" to the forcing cones and maybe more. Tom said a 2.5" shell will lose about 300# of pressure jumping just that 1/4" in a 2.75" chamber. He did not know what a 2" loss would be, but 1000 lbs would not be an unreasonable guess and much more is possible. This might be worse for fiber wads, which is what I want to test.

In another long chat with the tech at Precision (Bret?), he has no idea at all what the effect might be. None. It never even occurred to him. But safe to way, it is likely that the data will be biased low, and that is dangerous, esp. if you are right on the cusp of a working load threshold (i.e., 8k psi).

I would not use some of the loads that Drew posted for this reason.


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When RST was loading 2” loads, this was their loadings. Very little felt recoil in a 5 1/2 lb gun. Not sure when they will be able to load 2” shells.

12 2 Paper Ultra Lite 3/4 oz 1100 4800
12 2 Plastic Ultra Lite 3/4 oz 1100 4800
12 2 Paper Lite. 15/16 oz 1150 6100
12 2 Plastic Lite. 15/16 oz 1125 6100
12 2 Woodcock. 15/16 oz 1125 6200

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Originally Posted by Lloyd3
Perry: They might, but they're mostly for law enforcement so 00 buck would be the standard load. Good catch tho...
Federal has them in 00 buck AND 7.5 and 8. Bulldog Firearms in Rio Rancho New Mexico has a bunch of them in the bird shot.


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"[These are all Skimin and Wood barreled actions and ...."]BrentD, prof

My understanding was that Skimin & Wood were active in the '30s. This gun was built in 1956 according to the maker's letter. I don't have the gun in hand yet, but what is the tip off that the action is by S&W?...Geo

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Many have "For 2 inch case only" on the rib or barrel in gold or silver block letter (kinda unattractive actually).


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A 2” 12 gauge would make a lot of sense-if the 20 gauge hadn’t been invented.

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Originally Posted by BrentD, Prof
Many have "For 2 inch case only" on the rib or barrel in gold or silver block letter (kinda unattractive actually).

Hmm, well this one does have that. Seems informational to me or perhaps traditional. Is there something on the action that identifies it as made by S&W?...Geo

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[
Originally Posted by Geo. Newbern
Originally Posted by BrentD, Prof
Many have "For 2 inch case only" on the rib or barrel in gold or silver block letter (kinda unattractive actually).

Hmm, well this one does have that. Seems informational to me or perhaps traditional. Is there something on the action that identifies it as made by S&W?...Geo

Just pin locations and distinctive shape and size.


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The only non S&W guns that I have seen so far are a wryly a couple porky Purdeys and a brace of Hollands.


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In addition to the shape and pin locations, the Inscription regrading two inch cases seems to appear on guns made by S&W and those that were rebadged. My 2" 12 ga. by Charles Hellis is one such gun. Also the guns made by S&W often have the initials "JA" on a barrel just ahead of the flats. Joseph Asbury was a top barrel and action maker in the Birmingham trade who made most of the actions and barrels for S&W 2" 12 ga. between the wars according to this resource:
https://www.shotguns.se/html/uk_trademarks.html
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Borderbill has done yeoman's work on loads for the 2" 12 ga. Now if I could find a source for Clays...Unfortunately Hodgdon has temporarily stopped production of Clays and has stated that it may restart next year. Internet searches for it have yielded "too good to be true" prices (scams) or old ads from defunct companies. If anyone has a reliable source, please pm me. Gil

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Originally Posted by Perry M. Kissam
Originally Posted by Lloyd3
Perry: They might, but they're mostly for law enforcement so 00 buck would be the standard load. Good catch tho...
Federal has them in 00 buck AND 7.5 and 8. Bulldog Firearms in Rio Rancho New Mexico has a bunch of them in the bird shot.

The Aquila minishell is pretty high pressure. Federal minis are also hot. These shells aren’t made for vintage 2” gun but for self defense. See this thread Minishells

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I have seen Clay Dot recently which is very close to Clays. I would load up a set and send them out for testing. I loaded Bullseye and Red Dot for mine. I sent all my data down the road when I sold my gun. I never found a factory shell which was not unpleasant to shoot in such a light gun but back then RST was not around. My go to hull was a cut down Federal Paper hull with a roll crimp. They were cute little fellows. From memory the Red Dot was 15.5 grains but I would have them tested. $25-40.00 for a test is very cheap indeed. Also Titewad and Extralite could be a starting point with a little load development.

The 2" was a neat gun but I could do the same with a 20 or 28 easier. If I were stomping around the woods carrying a 5 pound 12 might make sense but on the Skeet field or Dove field I went another direction. To each their own. Hope you enjoy your new gun Geo.

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In speaking with a gunsmith who is also a fan of the 2" Twelve, he prefers it in the field over the 20 and 28 SXS because of arthritis in his carry hand. The size of the 12 is more comfortable in his hand rather than a smaller to grasp scaled 20 or 28 ga. I have had success loading the International 7/8 oz. load which is in the BP Short Hulls brochure. If anyone would like a copy, PM your email address and I'll respond with attachment. Gil

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Don’t forget the attempts by the Spaniards.


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Originally Posted by BrentD, Prof

Interesting gun. Rarely see any other than a straight hand stock.

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Bro. Venters came through, and his article "The Short-Shell 12" in May-June 2017 Shooting Sportsman is a must read

2" proof and service pressures were the same as 2 1/2" - 3 Dr. Eq. with 1 1/8 oz. shot with a mean pressure of 3 1/4 tons by LUP = 9,800 psi by Burrard’s conversion.

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2 inch "metal cartridge loaded with full 2 1/2" charge may shortly be a standard British cartridge (and) proof of the 2" gun should be identical with the 2 1/2" "

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Drew, holding 2.5" and 2" guns side by side makes a pretty convincing argument against that higher proof.

My Jeffrey 2" is only 55mm across the breech face. There is not much metal surrounding those chambers.


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Brent, your pictures look a lot like my pictures, but without my gun in hand its hard to tell. The engraving on the frame is quite similar, but of course my straight stock is different as well as being changed by the comb-rizer addition and pad. Pin placement on the frame looks about the same. Thanks to all for the responses to my inquiry regarding 2" guns...Geo

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well, why not have a gunsmith hog out the chambers to 2 3/4 and shoot 7/8 oz b&p loads...

dont git up set...jes kiddin guys...


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Brent: what is the end-of-chamber wall thicknesses of your 2" and 2 1/2" guns? And DOM?

Under the 1954 Rules of Proof 2” chamber guns MAY have been proved for 2 3/4 tons = 8,193 psi max. service load. Vic is looking into it.

John Brindle, author of Shotgun Shooting: Techniques & Technology published a review of Proof and Service pressures in Part 5 of his series in The Double Gun Journal, “Black Powder & Smokeless, Damascus & Steel”; Volume 5, Issue 3, 1994, “Some Modern Fallacies Part 5”, p. 11. His estimated post-1954 but pre-CIP standard pressures by LUP converted to piezo transducer PSI did not include 2"
12g 2 1/2" Standard Service = 6,800 psi; Max. Service 8,800 psi

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
Brent: what is the end-of-chamber wall thicknesses of your 2" and 2 1/2" guns? And DOM?

Under the 1954 Rules of Proof 2” chamber guns MAY have been proved for 2 3/4 tons = 8,193 psi max. service load. Vic is looking into it.
It looks like it's in the mid to low 0.08s on the right and a little thicker on the left.

My understanding is that some of the real early guns were proofed at 1.125 ounces as if they were 2.5"/1.125 oz guns because the proof houses were caught off guard without a standard for them. Later, the proof was dropped to 0.875 ounces. I have never heard what the pressure levels were.


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Ted, from a three page pamphlet by Charles Hellis as to his company's reasoning behind the Two Inch Twelve compared to the 20 ga.:
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Gil,
I’ve read it. But, that doesn’t mean I put much stock in it. Nothing against Hellis, per say, but, very little advertising on old double guns isn’t just hype. I will say, if my biggest problem were having trouble changing from a 12 to a 20, it is a pretty good sign of dwelling in the first world, a great thing.

Modern 20 gauge ammunition patterns superbly. Maybe it didn’t, back in the day. But, it does now. 2” ammunition would seem to be a problem of late. Factory loaded, and components, as well.

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Gil: Charles Hellis & Sons sold proprietary shotgun shells. Does the pamphlet specify the 2" loading?

BTW: here's Vic's article
https://shootingsportsman.com/short-shell-12-2-guns/

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Drew, here are the first two pages of the pamphlet with no load info. The pamphlet appeared in Diggory's online magazine. Here’s my Hellis. Someone bit the advertisement almost 90 years ago with a more recent bite 3 years ago by me. Is it a “practical”gun? Of course not. Fortunately, I have flat of RST’s and plenty of powder, hulls, wads, etc. to reload with some recipes reportedly well below SAAMI limits by several thousand psi. I’m not a high volume shooter as I don’t shoot clays and my shooting is for game birds only. At 75 years old, just how many seasons of shooting the short hull guns are left on my calendar? In the hunting of game birds for the table, a “practical” shotgun is almost a contradiction in terms. As Chuck H. observed years ago, once one passes a KFC on the way to hunt birds for the table, all vestiges of practicality sail out of the truck’s window.
As for another practical consideration, I just put down a deposit on a 3 week old female French Brittany to learn to hunt doodles and quail from my MuttPak's American Brittanys Abby, 12.5 years old, and Willa, 9. Gil
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Congratulations on the dog to be! I'm also in line for a new pup, but Gus is going to have to handle his 15th season alone again.


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Wowsa!

I would be honored to reload for that one.

Well done Gil!


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Were Charles Lancaster's "Pygmies" the forerunner of the 2" chambered shotgun?
The shells were 2"

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Lancaster went another direction with his 12-20.

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came upon this while looking for something else...

http://dismalriverarmory.com/webleyscott212gaug.html


keep it simple and keep it safe...
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I thought pygmies were a brand name like doughty farkillers etc.but for 2inch shell.

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Challenger shortshells run about 6600 and they are cheap. I used them last year bird hunting with no issues.

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Originally Posted by RARiddell
Challenger shortshells run about 6600 and they are cheap. I used them last year bird hunting with no issues.

Never heard of them. Where do you find them?


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Originally Posted by BrentD, Prof
Originally Posted by RARiddell
Challenger shortshells run about 6600 and they are cheap. I used them last year bird hunting with no issues.

Never heard of them. Where do you find them?

Canadian maker. From Quebec.


https://www.munitionschallenger.com/index.html

They occasionally will do a run of 2 1/2" shells for a retailer who will place a big enough order. I bought some last year from Ellwood Epps. (From whence comes Ellwood Blues (Dan Aklroyd's alter ego))

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Burrard's The Modern Shotgun, Vol. II "The Cartridge", 1955 3rd Edition has very little about 2" guns or cartridges, and no mention of Lancaster's Pygmies
p. 157 lists standard pressures for cartridges
12g 2 3/4" Service 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq Service 3.1 tons = 9,296 psi; Max. 3.9 tons = 11,984 (by his conversion to piezo number)
12g 2 1/2" 1 1/16 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. Service 2.7 tons = 7,952 psi; Max. 3.5 tons = 10,640 psi
12g 2" 7/8 oz. 2.36 Dr. Eq. (26 grains of 33 grain = 3 Dr.Eq. powder) Service 2.25 tons = 6,440 psi; Max. 3.0 = 8,960 psi
Vol. III also has very little
p. 217
"The 2-inch 12-bore...was originally introduced as an alternative to the 20-bore and fired the standard 2 1/2-inch 20-bore shot charge of 3/4 ounce. Experience proved that this shot charge was too light. So the shot charge was increased to the standard 2 1/2-inch 16-bore weight of 7/8 ounce."

SO this would support Brent in that 2" loadings at some point after 1934 were changed to lower oz. & pressures than the standard 12g 2 1/2" load, and Burrard's numbers would provide a good guide regarding load pressures.

Bill's Titewad load is approaching, but not reaching, the max., but as Brent stated, Boyle's Law would suggest higher pressures if the test barrel had a 2" chamber

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Never heard of them. Where do you find them?[/quote]

Any retailer, I think I got mine at target USA, 89.99 for 300 rounds, I sold some here on the board awhile back. They are a nice load at 5/8oz.

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The Challenger 1 3/4 shells leaded the hell out my barrels. They use a plastic over powder gas seal with some type of collapsible form and no shot cup. The lead must be very soft. My reloads have no problem as I use a waxed wad.

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Originally Posted by Borderbill
The Challenger 1 3/4 shells leaded the hell out my barrels. They use a plastic over powder gas seal with some type of collapsible form and no shot cup. The lead must be very soft. My reloads have no problem as I use a waxed wad.

What sort of waxed wad do you use and where do you get them? I usually lube my own and that's an ugly mess I would prefer to avoid.


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Ballistic products hard waxed wad works well. The same or similar is sold by Precision reloading. These appear to be the same wads that Kent used to use in their fiber loads. I still have a flat of 12's and 20's and I took one of each apart at one time. A friend gave me a whole lot of Winchester Molded Fiber wads and Alcans both of which are waxed and surprisingly haven't dried out. In those lots that I got were a 1000 Lujtic Mono wads. I've been experimenting with these in 2" shells and Fed paper. I've been working at full fiber loads for 2" but had to step back a bit of late. I believe Gil has been pursuing that with some success.

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I could not find those wads at Precision, but I'll look again. I'm avoiding BPI if at all possible.

I've been talking with Gil. His home made wads are pretty cool, but I'm trying to minimize hassles so I can shoot more.

Thanks.


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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
Were Charles Lancaster's "Pygmies" the forerunner of the 2" chambered shotgun?
The shells were 2"

Lancaster went another direction with his 12-20.

Drew,

The Lancaster 2” pygmies had problems with shot balling in 2.5” guns in the late 1890s. According to this article Gale the pygmies were the forerunner to the 2” gun. I’ve seen other articles where the Pygmies were made to allow more cartridges to be carried to the shoot. The 2” gun didn’t come out until approximately 1930 and the Pygmies were first brought out in the late 1890s. A long time for a great idea to catch on. smile

Ken

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What is "shot balling"? Is that a gun or a cartridge problem. I would guess the latter, whatever it is.


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Originally Posted by BrentD, Prof
What is "shot balling"? Is that a gun or a cartridge problem. I would guess the latter, whatever it is.

"Shot Balling" is when individual shot pellets clump together on discharge & create a heavier projectile which puts people down range such as beaters on driven hunts & dogs in danger.

I read somewhere that the issue w/ the Pygmie cartridges was due to the reduced amount of wadding that resulted from trying to get an equivalent amount of shot in a 2" cartridge that was normally carried in a 2 1/2".

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Here is a link to an article about shot balling in cartridges in long chambers: http://www.fourten.org.uk/tw_Blown_%20Patterns%20and%20_Balled%20Shot_.pdf

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Originally Posted by Brittany Man
Originally Posted by BrentD, Prof
What is "shot balling"? Is that a gun or a cartridge problem. I would guess the latter, whatever it is.

"Shot Balling" is when individual shot pellets clump together on discharge & create a heavier projectile which puts people down range such as beaters on driven hunts & dogs in danger.

I read somewhere that the issue w/ the Pygmie cartridges wad due to the reduced amount of wadding that resulted in trying to get an equivalent amount of shot in a 2" cartridge that was normally carried in a 2 1/2".

Interesting. I have patterned a fair number of cartridges in my 2". So far, I have not seen ic, but I'll watch for it.


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My current lead shot hand/reloading is limited to 28 ga. and 2” 12 ga., both of which are either prohibitively expensive in 28 ga. for high volume shooting commercial loads or currently unobtanium in the 2” 12 ga. load. I own two 85 year old 2” 12 ga. doubles made by Skimin & Wood but rebadged by other English gunmakers. Why shoot them? Because that’s what I want to do. They are perfect woodcock and quail guns over dogs which is my preferred method of hunting. Both weigh under 5.5 lbs. In handloading the 12 ga. loads, I relied on BP’s short hulls brochure for ¾ and 7/8 oz. loads. Both guns were proofed in England for the 7/8 oz. load. A friend in England sent me a recipe using fiber wads and Vectan AS which was tested by an English proof house. I bought 4 lbs of the powder two years ago from Graf at a clearance price of $14 per pound with a lowered hazmat fee. I am trying different powder weights to reduce velocity. His recipe is in addition to the ones from BP.
The BP 3/4 oz. load utilizes nitro card and cork spacers. It wouldn’t shoot consistent velocities and had several hundreds of fps differences. The 7/8 oz. load using the plastic gas seal of BP was consistent. However, I want a velocity consistent load using old school fiberwads without plastic. Another reloader and hunter from AZ unselfishly sent me a short article published in 1961 in the American Rifleman. The author described a metal cardboard wad punch and die. The author used heavily waxed cardboard from milk cartons which are now covered with plastic rather than waxed. The AZ reloader (borderbill) has skillfully made his excellent tool and die from steel on a lathe. The article mentions hardwood tool and die as being useful but perhaps not as durable. A friend turned and made a press for me out of hardwood. It produces the wads. Since my loads are primarily for quail and woodcock, durability shouldn’t be a problem as fewer shells are used in the field than on a skeet field. My cardboard is cut with a punch out of a cardboard box with cardboard thickness .019”. I impregnate it with paraffin wax by shaving bits of it on a sheet of aluminum foil on the cooking surface of a cast iron skillet. I place the discs on the melted paraffin until it fully penetrates the material. The cup shaped cardboard gas seal was initially difficult to insert in the shell. It resisted efforts to keep it a right angle to the axis of the hull. I solved this by making a tube out of a low brass unfired hull in which I was able to insert a wad backwards into the tube. With an antique rammer, I moved it to the opposite end of the tube. To keep the tube with the cupped wad flush with the to be loaded hull, I made a bushing from another section of hull and split it down one side so it would open enough to hold both the wad tube and the hull to be loaded in proper alignment. Pushing it with the full diameter rammer into the hull to be loaded was accomplished with it riding at right angle until firmly seated into the powder, open end on the powder. A nitro card followed along with a 3/8” thick Alcan Bluestreak fiber wad.
I collect old reloading tools. I like the French tools as they are made from European boxwood which is a rock hard wood. It is also beautiful. One tool that I find useful is a tapered rammer which expands the mouth of a fired roll crimped plastic hull to where it is easily reloaded. One such hull is in the photo of three tools. The man who made my wad press also made a maple tapered rammer which will round out the mouths of the fired 28 ga. hulls and the 2” 12 ga. hull facilitating reloading. The antique tapered rammer bottomed out on the 2” 12 ga. hull and wouldn’t fit in the 28 ga. hull. If I don’t round out the 28 ga. AAHS hulls, my PW 375 loaded wad intermittently will snag a star point resulting in a defective crimp that sticks in the sizing die making removal without cutting the hull impossible. The tapered rammer cures it. The tapered maple rammer works in hulls 28 ga. through 10 gauge.
I chrono the loads with my 870. I don’t want to risk the old doubles. Once I get a consistent, satisfactory velocity, then I will have them professionally tested. Until then, more development is needed. I believe the cardboard cupped wad will help with consistency. Preliminary results are encouraging. Both the man who sent me the Rifleman article and I believe inconsistency is caused by the nitro card’s tilting causing non uniform pressure of escaping gases against the load. Plastic wads are far more forgiving with their gas seals. There is good reason that they replaced the old technology—at least as evidenced by my loads so far. Gil

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GLS - Would you care to share the Vectan AS load data ?

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Gil,
If I had to do what you are doing, I’d literally buy a boat.

I’m glad you “want” to do that. But, all that is a bridge too far, for me.

Good luck.

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It’s like tying your own flies, Ted.
It extends the breadth of the shooting experience.


Out there doing it best I can.
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Originally Posted by ClapperZapper
It’s like tying your own flies, Ted.
It extends the breadth of the shooting experience.

If you say so. I don’t fly fish, or drink scotch, or wine, or eat caviar. I get that guys do, but I never thought about hunting doves, hunting turkeys, snagging paddlefish, or a bunch of other stuff, either. Outside my wheelhouse.

I just do me.

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I am reminded of a fellow telling me he had a 52 step process 😳 for reloading crimped primer range brass in .223
Not for everyone, but God bless him for his effort and determination.


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https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/cartridges-for-two-inch-12-bores

Henry Sharp, Shooting Times, April 1, 1939
Those who are desirous to get the maximum success out of these shorter cases will be pleased to learn that our British ammunition firm, I.C.I., are continually making experiments to ascertain the best combinations of powder charge and shot load for those who demand these shorter cases. For some years I.C.I. have been supplying a 12-bore two inch cartridge loaded into a 5-16 unlined quality case and the load used has been 26 grains of Smokeless Diamond and 7/8 oz. of shot.
Recently, after a considerable amount of experimental work with heavier powder charges, good results have been obtained with a load of 28 grains of Empire powder and 7/8 oz. of shot in a 5/8” deep brass or deep shell quality case. The 5/8” deep shell case has the advantage of allowing slightly more variation in loads as compared with the 5-16 unlined case. Tests with the new deep shell cased cartridge gave even and well-distributed patterns with good average ballistics.
This latest issue with its load of 28 grains of Empire powder and 1 oz. of shot will be obtainable for the coming season as an alternative to the cartridge with the original loading of 26 grains of Smokeless Diamond and 7/8 oz. of shot.

Curtis’s & Harvey “Diamond Smokeless” (introduced in 1903) and Nobel’s Explosive Co.'s “Empire” were both 11 grains/dram equivalent
26 grains = 2.36 Dr. Eq so roughly the standard (British) 20g 7/8 oz. 2 1/3 Dr. Eq. load
28 grains = 2.55 Dr. Eq. so roughly the standard 16g 1 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq load

The standard "light" 12g turn-of-the-century loading was 1 oz. with 40 grains of 14 gr./dram eq. "Schultze" or "E.C." = slightly more than 2 3/4 Dr. Eq.

Still haven't found confirmation of the pre-1954 Service Pressures for the 2" loads
After 1954 the Max. Service Load was 2 3/4 tons = 8,120 psi = 560 BAR
Burrard stated in 1955 the 12g 2” 7/8 oz. 2.36 Dr. Eq. standard service was 6,440 psi and max. service 8,960 psi

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Lancaster's Pygmies were 1 ounce.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Unfortunately the Walsrode Dr. Eq. was not listed.
1 oz. with 30 grains would be 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. at 1180 fps
Walsrode Smokeless & Waterproof Gun Powder Co. “Walsrode Gray” was another 11 grain / Dr. Eq. Bulk Smokeless powder.

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Limit 7/8 oz. 2 3/4 tons

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Drew, late last year I attempted to contact the Birmingham Proof House via the contact method on its website regarding the 2" pressures pre-1954. I don't know if they got the inquiry or not as I didn't receive a response. I suppose it may be worth time and effort for me to place a phone call and see if there is someone who might have the info. Gil
https://www.gunproof.com/contact

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Vic Venters is looking into it Gil, and has connections with the Proof House.

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1906 Gun Trade handbook : -

WALSRODE -
12G 2" 26-28 grains 1oz shot short case

12G 2 1/2" 29 grains 1 1/8oz Walsrode Co.'s special cases

16G 2 I/2" 27 grains 1oz W....... Co sp.... cases

20G 2 1/2" 25 grains 3/4 to 7/8oz W......Co sp ... cases

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EMPIRE POWDER - 1906 - No 12G 2" case load specification

BALLISTITE (Sporting) - 1906 - 12G 2" case ** - 24 grains - 1oz shot ** The 2" Parvo case is made specially without the cone base.

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Thank you!

Note Alfred Nobel's “Ballistite” was the first Dense Smokeless, introduced in 1887, patented in 1888, then “Sporting Ballistite” (for shotgun shells) was patented in 1889, but not released to the trade by Nobel’s Explosive Co. until 1895.
24 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.

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Strange that the proof House failed to respond. May be worth another try. Sadly, my contacts there are no longer with us. Luckily here in England Eley still make them although now in plastic cases and also Lyalvale Express although I tend not to use the latter as they have plastic wads. When I load them I tend to use the Vectan AS powder. Red Dot is o.k. but I have had the odd 'blooper' with it for some strange reason. Lagopus.....

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Two 2" action flats courtesy of L.D. at Westley Richards Agency, U.S.A.

The first is one of a pair H&H Royal Centenary gun made in 1935; with the standard 1925-1954 proof marks, for 1 oz.

In 1935, the Proof House determined the 2” “cartridge loaded with full 2 1/2” charge...proof of the 2” gun should be identical with the 2 1/2”’.
I don't have the pre-1954 12g 1 oz. standard or max. service pressures

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

The second is a H&H Royal Twelve-Two, completed in 1934, just before WR changed the name of the 2" guns. The gun was rebarreled in London in 2006 with CIP Standard (Crowed STD) proof.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

The CIP Standard 2" pressures are same as 2 1/2" and 2 3/4"
Maximum Average (Service) Pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi;
Maximum Statistical Individual Pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi
Mean PROOF Pressure 930 BAR = 13,489 psi

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Drew,
I'm guessing those are not Skimin and Wood actions. But I certainly could be wrong. Do you know for sure, one way or the other?


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Rebadged S&W by C. Hellis & Sons. Note J.A. (Joseph Asbury) initials on barrels, just ahead of flats:
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BrentD, FYI, the two flats that Drew posted are not on S&W A&D actions; both examples are from best-quality Holland & Holland bar-action sidelocks. (Note the chopper-lump barrels.)

I'm trying to get pics of the flats for a Dominion back-lock H&H 2" gun. If anyone would like a PDF of a short article I wrote on 2" guns I would be happy to email them, and you would be free to upload it here -- a task beyond my Ned Luddish technological capabilities.

For those who were at the Southern, Westley Richards had the pair of Holland "Royal" Centenary guns -- magnificent. They are also on WR's website under pre-owned guns.

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Originally Posted by Vic Venters
BrentD, FYI, the two flats that Drew posted are not on S&W A&D actions; both examples are from best-quality Holland & Holland bar-action sidelocks. (Note the chopper-lump barrels.)

I'm trying to get pics of the flats for a Dominion back-lock H&H 2" gun. If anyone would like a PDF of a short article I wrote on 2" guns I would be happy to email them, and you would be free to upload it here -- a task beyond my Ned Luddish technological capabilities.

For those who were at the Southern, Westley Richards had the pair of Holland "Royal" Centenary guns -- magnificent. They are also on WR's website under pre-owned guns.

I would be love to read your article if you could post it to brentd@iastate.edu. I'm not sure if I can post a PDF on this site or not, but I'll give it a shot.

I have seen the H&H pair on the Westley website. They are, indeed, magnificent. And a bit beyond my mad-money ceiling. smile


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Thanks Gil & Vic

This is a pressure table published in the U.S. in 1934, based on the 1925 Rules of Proof. No 2" frown

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The proof and service pressures in the 1954 Rules did not exceed, and some were less, than the 1925 Rules.

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I may have answered my own question, but confirmation by the experts would be appreciated now that 2" eyes are fixed on this thread. I posted photos of the below gun in June of 2020 with inquiry as to who made it. The only writing on it is "J.W. Lewis" on the breech end of the rib. A photo appears of the small engraved "J.W. Lewis". His name isn't recognized in the tomes of British makers. The rib is an unusual style, convex the length of the 28" barrels. The gun is a BLE. I have thought it to be a rebadged S&W, but with an unknown badge. Confirmation that it is probably an S&W is the serial number on the trigger guard. 4016. The Hellis's serial number depicted a few responses up, is 4105. Despite not having the case size caution typical on the ribs of an S&W double, the action appears to me to have been made by S&W. That S&W made guns for the trade is widely known. The pin and screw placement differs from my Hellis, but the Hellis is an extractor gun and the "Lewis?" is ejector. There are no other serial number markings on the metal work other than on the trigger guard. All metalwork is serial numbered on the Hellis.
If anyone has a better grasp of who made the gun, I'd love to hear it. Gil
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This is the PDF that Vic sent me. I'm experimenting here with a delivery method that I'm not very familiar with. May take a few tries. The top link works for me, but may not work for anyone else. Let me know.

https://iastate.box.com/s/2fdo6913q18ov2x22b4mmz0zx8gz4rbb

Last edited by BrentD, Prof; 05/25/23 01:11 PM.

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Courtesy of KDGJ

1933 2” Westley Richard. WR action; not Skimmin & Wood. 7/8" proof.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

1935 H&H 2” Royal, rebarreled in 1962 by H&H. 1 oz. proof.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]


These are early guns. Per Bro. Venters Skimmin & Wood completed their first 2" 12 in 1930, "The 20th Century Gun", regulated for 3/4 oz.


What we need now is a post-1954 gun so we know to what TONS the gun was proved

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Thanks Drew.

Ken

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Don't know how I missed this thread
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=355905

p. 4
"I currently own a 2" Churchill 'Imperial' SLE that was proofed at 1-1/8 oz. out of the London Proof House. Sold new in 1954 with the typical XXV 25" barrels and choked .015" and .017"."

That 1 1/8 oz. would be under the 1925 Rules. Post-1954 the proof would be in TONS and chamber length 50 mm

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From the IGC. 'Skimin' is as posted

The firm of Skimin & Wood was established in about 1920 at 31 Loveday Street. Samuel Skimin had previously been works manager st Holloway & Naughton.
The firm was mainly manufacturers for the trade in the UK, but they developed an export trade with firms in Australia and New Zealand and elsewhere in the world.

Between 1920 and 1925 the firm moved to the Enterprise Works, 52 Cliveland Street.

In 1929 the firm bought Holloway & Naughton (and J & W Tolley who had been bought by Holloway & Naughton in 1916) and moved into their premises at 10, 12, & 14 Vesey Street. In that year they also bought Charles Osborne & Co Ltd.

In 1930, in the UK and the USA, Samuel Skimin undertook the marketing of the first commercially made 2 inch chambered 12 bore shotgun. It was named "The 20th Century Gun" and weighed 5 pounds.

In 1932 the 10 Vesey Street premises were occupied by R B Rodda & Co Ltd, and Skimin & Wood, Holloway & Naughton and J & W Tolley traded from 12 & 14 Vesey Street (Charles Osborne & Co Ltd appear to have ceased trading but survived in name until 1957).

In about 1945 Skimin & Wood bought the business of Standard Sporting Guns Ltd.

In 1957 Skimin & Wood moved to Little Shadwell Street.

In 1964 the firm was bought by F J Wiseman & Co Ltd who moved them to their premises at 3 Price Street. In 1986 F J Wiseman moved to 262 Walsall Road, Bridgtown, Cannock, Staffordshire.


No pic of the barrel flats frown
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ide-by-side-shotgun.cfm?gun_id=101902089

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I have not heard that anyone as failed to get into the PDF that I posted above for Vic. That being the case, I guess everyone is getting in okay.

So, here is a second document he sent me discussing issues at the proof houses with the 2" 12b

https://iastate.box.com/s/p3mbyg1z69n0u104count0mwaec71ky5


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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
In 1964 the firm was bought by F J Wiseman & Co Ltd who moved them to their premises at 3 Price Street. In 1986 F J Wiseman moved to 262 Walsall Road, Bridgtown, Cannock, Staffordshire.

Drew, I read somewhere that Skimin and Wood records were lost - perhaps just their early, prewar records. But have you found any information about people that may have records of these guns?

I find it interesting that just a few SW actions have the 2 inch case warning on the right barrel instead of the rib. My Jeffrey (ssn (369XX) is that way as well. I would be surprised if that didn't have something to do with age, but were they earlier or later, hard to say without getting down to the details.


A strong warning about this gun. I was really hot on it for a while. However, I got some more details about it and ruled it out. This gun was bought by the shop owner while in England. He has never fired it. It was punched out to 2.75" chambers and reproofed in something like 1991 (maybe wrong on that detail, but it's ballparkish). The new proof was at a pretty high pressure level, but I don't recall what it was.

I would not touch one of these guns with a chamber like that, but the owner argued that it would be fine because it was been proofed 30ish yrs ago, and someone must have shot it and survived. I did not think that was sufficiently strong logic for my purposes.

Also, I think he has raised the price ~10% recently. Any gun I express interest in, suddenly gets a big inflationary boot. The Lang/SW gun at Dismal River Armory is another. Personally, I think both were well overvalued at their earlier prices.


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From 2008 Brent
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=117121
I spoke with Frank Wiseman (84 years young at the time) about 5-6 years ago about another shotgun I thought might be a Skimin & Wood. Frank informed me in typical Brit understatement, "You know, we had a War." Meaning the Skimin & Wood records were lost to bombing during WW2.

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Originally Posted by GLS
Rebadged S&W by C. Hellis & Sons. Note J.A. (Joseph Asbury) initials on barrels, just ahead of flats:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

My 2" Hellis is #4135 and has identical markings on the barrel flats but it's an ejector gun.

Last edited by Recoil Rob; 05/25/23 06:08 PM.

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George has not posted since 5-19.
His 2" William Powell No. 5 was manufactured in 1956 so the proof marks would resolve the post-1954 Rules of Proof question for 2" guns.
I sent him a PM.

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This is my Jeffrey proof set.

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The date code is a not fully struck 'O' for 1934-1935

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Last edited by Drew Hause; 05/27/23 05:06 PM. Reason: Corrected date code
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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
Brent: is the date code 'C' for 1923-1924??
How did it get post-1925 Rules marks??

Drew, I have no idea. You know far more about proofs that I.

However with that high serial number, it may be a very late gun. Although, I suspect that the number is probably from Jeffrey, not from SW. 'But there is one other feature that I think it also suggestive of it being a late gun. It has the 2 inch Case Only label in the unmistakable (and somewhat ugly) block letters that S&W used, but the inlay is on the right barrel, not the rib. The same is seen in Vic's article that I posted. This is very rare in my limited experience. I take it to be a function of being one of the last of the guns they may have made.


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Originally Posted by Recoil Rob
Originally Posted by GLS
Rebadged S&W by C. Hellis & Sons. Note J.A. (Joseph Asbury) initials on barrels, just ahead of flats:
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

My 2" Hellis is #4135 and has identical markings on the barrel flats but it's an ejector gun.
Please post a photo of the action so I can compare pin locations, etc. to my "Lewis?" Thanks. Gil

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This is the proof set for the Kimbal/Skimin and Wood that is being shipped to me (soon I hope). It is an ejector gun with JA barrels and it looks like it might have a 4100 serial number.

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Glad you found such a nice looking gun to scratch that itch. Hope you get a ton of pleasure from using it. Jon.

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Originally Posted by KY Jon
Glad you found such a nice looking gun to scratch that itch. Hope you get a ton of pleasure from using it. Jon.

I'm having a blast, literally, with the Jeffrey. But I'm not hitting much with it. Loading for these things is not easy.

When the Kimble/Skimin & Wood gets here, I'll be even happier. These things are really amazingly fun, although they make missing very, very easy.


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2” roll crimped paper shells are the most fun looking shells. I used cutdown Federal paper hulls and think paper is just right for a classic double whenever you can find or make them.

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Originally Posted by KY Jon
2” roll crimped paper shells are the most fun looking shells. I used cutdown Federal paper hulls and think paper just is right for a classic double whenever you can find or make them.

Indeed, I have some paper hulls to try once I have a load worked out. I've been building gear to make reloading easier with case cutters, priming tools, depriming tool, etc. Some of it is a bit crude but effective. Right now, I'm searching for a go-to load in plastic that I load a lot of using a locally available once-fired hull. That turns out to be Federal Top Gun which the highschool and grade school kids shoot by the boxcar. I got some data back from Precision Reloading today that is absolutely mind blowing to me. So, tonight it is back to the basement to brew up some better ones.


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Brent: the Kimbal date code looks to be 'R' for 1936-1937

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I don't see an R anywhere. But I've never had great luck parsing proofs.


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Recoil Rob sent me the below photo of his BLE Hellis and it appears to share similarities to the action of my “unbadged” gun on page 10 of this thread that I’ve felt was made by S&W (action maybe) with a four digit serial number beginning with 4, the same as his Hellis and my BLNE Hellis both of which were made by S&W (IMO with a high degree of certainty). One apparent structural difference is the treatment behind the breech balls. Despite the similarities of the serial number on the trigger guard extension and tang with other S&W made guns, I'm less certain about its maker due to the barrel style and breech ball treatment. Gil
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Originally Posted by GLS
Recoil Rob sent me the below photo of [[img]https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds[/img]img]https://photobucket.com/u/Altamash/p/8ad9e63d-6882-4ce0-b9c1-d49f10f4ef55?action=focus[/img][img]https://photobucket.com/u/Altamash/p/8ad9e63d-6882-4ce0-b9c1-d49f10f4ef55?action=focus[/img]his BLE Hellis and it appears to share similarities to the action of my “unbadged” gun on page 10 of this thread that I’ve felt was made by S&W (action maybe) with a four digit serial number beginning with 4, the same as his Hellis and my BLNE Hellis both of which were made by S&W (IMO with a high degree of certainty). One apparent structural difference is the treatment behind the breech balls. Despite the similarities of the serial number on the trigger guard extension and tang with other S&W made guns, I'm less certain about its maker due to the barrel style and breech ball treatment. Gil
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

GLS

Some photos of my ultra plain Jane Skimin and Wood 2’ BLE. It might help you compare the styles between yours and my original S&W.
[img]https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds[/img]
[img]https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds[/img]
[img]https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds[/img]
[img]https://hosting.photobucket.com/ima...?width=320&height=320&fit=bounds[/img]



I hope these show.

My gun number is 88617

All the best

Skeeterbd

PS: the pictures haven’t shown. I hope some kind soul can make them show up. Thanks.

Last edited by Skeeterbd; 05/26/23 10:51 AM.
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Thanks, Skeeterbd. The initials of the action and barrel maker, J.A., Joseph Asbury, are duly noted. My BLE must be an orphan. Gil

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Drew,
I dont doubt that's a R, but if you said it was a D or just about any other letter, I'd believe that too. Even with magnification, I can't tell what many of these proofs are.


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Doctor Drew, I haven't posted further because I do no have the Powell gun in hand yet. The only pics I have are the ones I posted to begin with. When I get the gun, I'll be happy to provide pics of the action and barrel flats to someone who can post them...Geo

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Skeeterbd: Upside down date code is 'S' 1937-1938

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13/1 = bore at 9" .719" - .728"

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2" Arthur Howell & Co.
per https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/fo...ne-know-anything-about-arthur-howell-co/
Nigel Browns, British Gunmakers:
Arthur Howell was recorded at 28 Weaman St. Birmingham in 1909 and became Arthur Howell & Co. in 1917. He remained at Weaman Street until 1942 but may have removed to Whittall Street shortly thereafter. He is recorded as being there in Gun Trade membership at least until 1957.

Similar to the J.W. Lewis 2" on the previous page

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

SN 7,558 is reported to date to 1937. The SN is 7425, but I can't read the date code

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Double Gun Journal Vol. 16 Issue 4 Winter 2005 by Stephen Howell

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On further review wink I think Brent's Jeffery's date code is a not fully struck 'O' for 1934-1935

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I am a late reader of all these posts about 2 inch chamber 12 bore guns and it may be that my input here is irrelevant or of no interest. But it seemed to me as I have just briefly read all 13 pages of this post that there were questions in some readers/posters mind about the proof pressure differences (if any) between the proof of 2 1/2 inch chambered 12 bore guns and 2 inch chambered 12 bore guns via the two proof houses in the UK. I just pulled out my copy of the "RULES OF PROOF 1954" ---"Rules Regulations and Scales made in the month of October 1954" and turned to page 20 (of 45 pages) titled APPENDIX II---"for the proof of barrels and the arms of the first class". This appendix chart shows that for Provisional Proof the loading for both 2- 1/2 inch and 2 inch chambered 12 bore guns use the identical proof loads: 266 grains of Tower Proof (T.P.) powder and 1- 1/4 ounces of no. 6 shot. However the Definitive Proof loads for the 2- 1/2 chambered 12 bore guns and the 2 inch chambered guns are different; the Definitive Proof load for the 2-1/2 inch chambered 12 bore gun is 178 grains of Tower Special Proof (T.S.P.) powder and 1- 11/16 grains of no. 6 shot, while the Definitive Proof load for 2 inch chambered 12 bore gun is 170 grains of T.S.P. and 1-5/8 ounce of no. 6 shot.

This data above does not answer the question if both 2-1/2 inch chambered and 2 inch chambered 12 bore guns are proofed to the same proof pressure but it give reasonable expectations that the UK provisional proof pressures could the same or even more for the 2 inch chambered gun; and in the case of definitive proof the pressures are very similar.

I also noted from this appendix (as referenced above) that 2-3/4 inch, 2-1/2 inch and 2 inch chambered 12 bore guns all were proofed with the same Provisional Proof load as listed above; and I was more than a bit surprised at this.

Kindest Regard;
Stephen Howell

Last edited by bushveld; 05/27/23 10:34 PM.
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Stephen, thanks for shining your analytical light on post 1954 Rules of proof. The input from Dr. Drew ,his connections (Vic), the source materials he found which are depicted are invaluable. Brent's conversation with Tom Armbrust was also noteworthy as to the difference in pressure readings depending on length of hull vs. chamber length of pressure testing barrel and the operation of Boyle's law. Borderbill's sharing of his test sheets are a great starting point for reloaders. The grey area for me remaining (more hand-wringing) are the recommended service pressures for the pre-1954 guns which in the 1930s went from 3/4 to 7/8 oz. service load recommendations. Gil

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The Provisional Proof is just for the basic tube before any work is undertaken in order to show any flaws. This procedure is nor compulsory but advisable to save a lot of work being done to a faulty tube. Initially, when the 2" chamber guns started to make their appearance, the Proof House insisted in subjecting them to the same Definitive Proof as a 2 1/2" chamber gun and that is why some early 2" guns have the 1 1/8th. ounce mark on the barrel flats. Later a compromise was reached between the Gun Trade and the Proof Houses which resulted in a lower proof requirement for 2" guns.

I've been at the Proof House in Birmingham when Provisional Proof was taking place. If you have access to Greener's 'Gun & its Development' you will see the illustration and there is no change in how it is done other than the powder trail is ignited from an old car battery rather than a percussion gun lock and a piece of string running through a small hole in the wall. A series of bangs as the powder packed tubes go off in rapid succession and then the iron louvres are opened to let the smoke out. Once the 'all clear' goes all the barrel tubes are dug out of the sand beds. All very 'low tech' but it works! Lagopus.....

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Originally Posted by lagopus
I've been at the Proof House in Birmingham when Provisional Proof was taking place. If you have access to Greener's 'Gun & its Development' you will see the illustration and there is no change in how it is done other than the powder trail is ignited from an old car battery rather than a percussion gun lock and a piece of string running through a small hole in the wall. A series of bangs as the powder packed tubes go off in rapid succession and then the iron louvres are opened to let the smoke out. Once the 'all clear' goes all the barrel tubes are dug out of the sand beds. All very 'low tech' but it works! Lagopus.....

This sounds pretty interesting and not at all what I would have expected. "Powder trail"? Buried in sand beds? Nope, not what I thought at all. Do you have any pictures of this? It sounds as if this provisional testing might be with black powder. I would love to hear more about it.


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Lagopus;

Thank you for your insightful description that the old method of Provisional Proof is still in use at the two UK proof house. Please tell me this however, in these days how is the barrel plug secured into the breech end of the barrels during Provisional Proof?

Also do any of the London best gunmakers submit their barrels for Provisional Proof now?

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell

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Good work with primary sources, Bushveld.

Lagapus, I am under the impression, perhaps mistakingly, that provisional proof is rarely used with modern shotgun barrels. I suspect it varies from maker to maker.

Certainly when the modern era Greener (Tandy & Dryhurst) were busy making “new” Damascus- barreled guns (with ‘virgin’ vintage tubes) they submitted to provisional proof.

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Thank you Stephen
In summary

1925 12g proof and service loads as published by Burrard
No 2" listed (and as noted proved to the same as 2 1/2")
2 1/2" and 2 5/8" Definitive Proof 178 grains / 6 1/2 Drams T.S.P. with 1 11/16 oz. Service 3 Drams with 1 1/8 oz.

Burrard "The Modern Shotgun" Vol. III, 2nd Edition
p. 217
"The 2-inch 12-bore...was originally introduced as an alternative to the 20-bore and fired the standard 2 1/2-inch 20-bore shot charge of 3/4 ounce. Experience proved that this shot charge was too light. So the shot charge was increased to the standard 2 1/2-inch 16-bore weight of 7/8 ounce."

c. 1935 the Proof House determined that 2" chambers would be proved the same as 2 1/2" (See back on p. 5 courtesy of Vic)

2" post-1954 Definitive Proof 170 grains T.S.P. and 1-5/8 oz.

Burrard published in 1955
12g 2 1/2” 1 1/16 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. Standard Service 7,952 psi; Max. Service 10,640 psi
12g 2” 7/8 oz. 2.36 Dr. Eq. Standard Service 6,440 psi; Max. Service 8,960 psi

We'll soon know, but it is likely, post-1954 2" were proved 2 3/4 TONS - Highest Mean Service Pressure 8,120 psi (by Burrard's conversion) = 560 BAR

John Brindle, author of Shotgun Shooting: Techniques & Technology published a review of Proof and Service pressures in Part 5 of his series in The Double Gun Journal, “Black Powder & Smokeless, Damascus & Steel”; Volume 5, Issue 3, 1994, “Some Modern Fallacies Part 5”, p. 11. His estimated post-1954 but pre-CIP standard pressures by LUP converted to piezo transducer PS
12g 2 1/2” Standard Service - 6,800 psi; Max. Service - 8,800 psi; Proof - 12,250 psi

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With respect to reloading the 2 inch shell has anyone tried the Mini Shell kit from MEC? Looked at their short kit and decided I could just as easily make a plate from 1/4" steel to raise up the height.


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I had a 650 Jr. in 20 ga. I found a set of 12 ga. tools to fit it on Ebay. I took a different approach to raising the "table" I cut off a low brass shell flush with the top of the brass and used a hole saw to cut out the .25" piece of scrap marine plywood and epoxied it to the base with JB Weld. I had to trim the plastic final stage crimping tool to an overall length of 2" measured from the top of the tool to the opening. I move the sawed off brass around to the stages I need. The rimmed hull stub fits under the metal piece that allows the shell to align with each stage correctly and place the hull to be loaded on top of it. I use a separate device to resize, de-prime and re-prime. I mostly roll crimp, however. In speaking with MEC, the short shell kit won't accommodate 2" shells without modification. Here's a thinned from firing, worn out 2" hull previously roll crimped. Not having any star crimped ammo left, here's what the press does on a hull filled with rice for a quick example of what can be done with the stub beside it. Perhaps borderbill will show what he's done to his press.
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FWIW I just checked the date code on my Hellis with a loupe, an "R", which jives with what The records stated, 1936-37

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Originally Posted by Recoil Rob
FWIW I just checked the date code on my Hellis with a loupe, an "R", which jives with what The records stated, 1936-37
My Hellis has a "S" indicating 37-38, a year later than yours, but with your serial # being 30 units higher. Go figure. Gil

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The Mec short kit is a metal plate with four removable screw in feet. Its set hight is for the 1 3/4" shell. I turned down the legs on the lathe to what I thought I needed for the 2 inches; I had to do that one or times until I had the room I needed at the crimping station. If you're just going to roll crimp the hight is not so critical. I thought about just using a shaped steel plate at first but I'm glad I didn't. Having to cut down the thickness on the mill or shaper would have been too much screwing around. Wood would work easily as well on the Mec Jr. but you might find yourself taking it back to jointer to get the crimping station hight.

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Originally Posted by GLS
Originally Posted by Recoil Rob
FWIW I just checked the date code on my Hellis with a loupe, an "R", which jives with what The records stated, 1936-37
My Hellis has a "S" indicating 37-38, a year later than yours, but with your serial # being 101 units higher. Go figure. Gil

The records show that mine was built and sold in November of 1936 to Mr. Wilson. Maybe it was a special order just for him or maybe they made a group of ejector guns in one run.


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Nice 2" Skimin & Wood, unfortunately with no image of the barrel flats
https://www.cpoutfitters.com/Skimin-Wood-Boxlock-Ejector-12-Ga-2-SxS-Shotgun-p/swble12b241.htm

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
Nice 2" Skimin & Wood, unfortunately with no image of the barrel flats
https://www.cpoutfitters.com/Skimin-Wood-Boxlock-Ejector-12-Ga-2-SxS-Shotgun-p/swble12b241.htm

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We have talked about that one already. I've seen the proofs and talked to the owner. It has been punched out to 2.75"and reproofed.

That's the one at Country Something in Massachusetts, right?

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You are correct Brent. The Gun International listing back on p. 10.
No mention of the 2 3/4" chambers.

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
You are correct Brent. The Gun International listing back on p. 10.
No mention of the 2 3/4" chambers.

Yeah, you have to talk to the guy. He sent me pics of the proofs. I might be able to dig them out of the trash. I'll see. They are as he said. But I would not buy such a gun.


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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
You are correct Brent. The Gun International listing back on p. 10.
No mention of the 2 3/4" chambers.



Well, it took more than 1/2 an hour, but I found the pic of the proofs on my text. Looks like I was wrong by about 5 mm. They were carved to 65 mm.

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Five digit serial number above. So much for my mistaken belief that there was a 4 digit serial # for the S&W guns. Perhaps a different numbering system for those made for the trade or the trade supplied their own numbering system. Gil

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GLS

My S&W has a 5 digit serial number. I suspect Hellis had their own serial numbers.

Reverend Drew

Thanks. My gun is indeed from 1937-38.

All the best

Skeeterbd

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Thanks, Skeeterbd. I am still baffled as to the pedigree of my other 2" Twelve appearing on page 10 of this thread and who "J.W. Lewis" is. It bears "4016" on the trigger guard which is very close in number to Recoil Rob's Hellis "4135" and my Hellis "4105". There is no other serial numbering on any other metal work. It doesn't have the crossed staff date code engraving. It seems too much of a coincidence that all three guns above have four digit numbers on them with all starting with "4" with a range of 119 units. Gil

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I have an unusual C.Hellis. First it has a 3 digit serial number. I measured the chambers and my remarks on my sheet from a number of years ago says, 'Somewhat less than 2.5" Check with shorter gauges" I do not have a shorter gauge and have not checked it. The flats do not have a chamber length stamped on them. I will have to properly check the chambers and get back to this thread. It is also unusual in that the top tang is "bent" to the left (although there are no signs of being bent and almost appears to have been made that way.) and there is cast on. Seems to have been set up for a left hand shooter but I shoot it right handed just fine.

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Originally Posted by Tamid
I have an unusual C.Hellis. First it has a 3 digit serial number. I measured the chambers and my remarks on my sheet from a number of years ago says, 'Somewhat less than 2.5" Check with shorter gauges" I do not have a shorter gauge and have not checked it. The flats do not have a chamber length stamped on them. I will have to properly check the chambers and get back to this thread. It is also unusual in that the top tang is "bent" to the left (although there are no signs of being bent and almost appears to have been made that way.) and there is cast on. Seems to have been set up for a left hand shooter but I shoot it right handed just fine.

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[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]



That seems quite different. Does the top lever move left or right? I have seen mention of other chamber lengths like 2.25". But they must have been quite rare and maybe one of a kind.

More pictures of the rest of the gun, please.

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Went and remeasured the chambers and they are slightly less than 2.5" which could be the variance in the gauge, definitely not a 2".

Lever moves to the right.

Not great pictures but what I have. Click on picture to enlarge.

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Very nice gun, for certain. The Greener crossbolt suggests a larger cartridge and gun than the diminutive Skimin and Wood style.


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Tamid,,

Your gun was Birmingham proofed between 1887 and 1896, which would well pre-date the fashion for 2” chambered guns, as would the use of Damascus barrels.

It does not appear to be re-proofed.

I remember reading a recent article in the Field a modern British gunmaker stating he likes to form the top tang to match the intended cast on or cast off.

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This article provides information on the 2” loads in the late 1930s Two Inch loads. An ounce of shot and 28 grams of Empire powder. Seems a little spiffy for a light gun. Of course the Brit loads for a 2” gun today are not something you want to shoot a round of clays with.

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Back on p. 8 Ken

Curtis’s & Harvey “Diamond Smokeless” (introduced in 1903) and Nobel’s Explosive Co.'s “Empire” were both 11 grains/dram equivalent
26 grains = 2.36 Dr. Eq
28 grains = 2.55 Dr. Eq.

The standard "light" 12g turn-of-the-century loading was 1 oz. with 40 grains of 14 gr./dram eq. "Schultze" or "E.C." = slightly more than 2 3/4 Dr. Eq.

From 1912 Curtis & Harvey’s Smokeless Diamond 12g 2 1/2” case 33 gr. (3 Dram) 1 oz. = 8,288 psi so 2.55 Dr. Eq. would be less than 8000 psi

Burrard reported 12g 2” 7/8 oz. 2.36 Dr. Eq. standard service at 6,440 psi

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Although this article is all about house-clearing buckshot loads for whatever, the load is interesting to the guns here, if 382 grs of # 7.5s are substituted for 396 grs of #4 buck.

Wish I could find some Clays.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/latest-loads-12-ga-2-shotshell/


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H&H Dominion 2" with 1 oz. proof courtesy of Bro. Venters
The SN is 34052. Could someone please look up the DOM and thanks?

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Drew,

Without calling H&H in Dallas, I don’t think you can get an exact date. Dallas’s book shows serial #s 34000-34401 as being made 1934-1940 and 1946-1950 for Badminton and Dominion guns.

Ken

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Weren't some H&H guns, major parts, outsourced?? Gil

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Originally Posted by GLS
Weren't some H&H guns, major parts, outsourced?? Gil

Yes, the Badminton along with the Dominion were Birmingham made, and of course their early guns before they built their own factory were outsourced. A.A. Brown made many Holland & Holland Badminton guns. Donal Dallas quotes that all Badminton guns were Birmingham made, but I have often wondered if after WWII when Holland was beginning again to make sporting guns if Holland did build some Badminton's at their factory in London. It should be noted that Birmingham firms such as A.A.Brown could and did build guns equal to anything produced by the best gun builders of London; and they still do as witnessed by the stunning the new pair of O/U's.

Kindest Regards;
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The H&H gun was made in 1935. That was the only time they designated the model as Centenary (Henry Holland opened his tobacco shop in 1835) Looks very similar to a gun I imported several years ago and sold back to the H&H NYC branch. Interestingly the Wall thickness was .014", yes 14thou. I pointed this out to Guy Davies as he looked over the gun. He responded "Don't worry about that that's the way we made them"


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What prompted my inquiry about H&H outsourcing was the warning on the depicted gun's rib. It smacks of Skimin & Wood, a major supplier to A.A. Brown, which was purchased by A.A. Brown after the war. Gil

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
H&H Dominion 2" with 1 oz. proof courtesy of Bro. Venters
The SN is 34052. Could someone please look up the DOM and thanks?

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[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]


It would be nice to see the rest of this gun and maybe some dimensions and weight. It is obviously not an S&W action. Some Purdies I have seen were also obviously not S&W guns but they were also very nearly 6#, so some what porky in comparison. S&W actions are notably narrow behind the fences as well as across the breech face and perhaps short from breech face to pivot pin.


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Originally Posted by GLS
What prompted my inquiry about H&H outsourcing was the warning on the depicted gun's rib. It smacks of Skimin & Wood, a major supplier to A.A. Brown, which was purchased by A.A. Brown after the war. Gil


good points. The verbiage is the same, although the execution so much more tasteful. But then it is a Holland.


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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
George has not posted since 5-19.
His 2" William Powell No. 5 was manufactured in 1956 so the proof marks would resolve the post-1954 Rules of Proof question for 2" guns.
I sent him a PM.

Reverend Doctor Drew, I finally picked up my Powell gun after a week at the beach. I'm sending you a picture of the barrel flats, but the proof is 1 1/8th oz. Gil, I do not find the JA mark on the barrels ..Geo

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There's a Powell collector on board here. Maybe he can add something about the origin, but I believe Powell made their own if not mistaken. Gil

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George,

Contact Steve Helsley through a PM. He’s the guy GLS refers to above.

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George's Powell SN 15126

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The date code is 1954 but still proved 1 1/8 oz. under the 1925 Rules

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So in summary

In late 1935, the Proof House established that 2" proof and service pressures were the same as 2 1/2" - 3 Dr. Eq. with 1 1/8 oz. shot with a mean pressure of 3 1/4 tons by LUP = 9,800 psi by Burrard’s conversion.

Henry Sharp in Shooting Times, April 1, 1939 re: 2" loads
This latest issue with its load of 28 grains of Empire powder and 1 oz. of shot will be obtainable for the coming season as an alternative to the cartridge with the original loading of 26 grains of Smokeless Diamond and 7/8 oz. of shot.
The same loads are listed in the 1948 Edition of Burrard; with no 36 gr., 42 gr., nor Dense Smokeless listed
Curtis’s & Harvey “Diamond Smokeless” (introduced in 1903) and Nobel’s Explosive Co.'s “Empire” were both 11 grains/dram equivalent
26 grains = 2.36 Dr. Eq (roughly the standard (British) 20g 7/8 oz. 2 1/3 Dr. Eq. load)
28 grains = 2.55 Dr. Eq. (roughly the standard 16g 1 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq load)

Burrard's The Modern Shotgun, Vol. II "The Cartridge", 1955 3rd Edition p. 157 lists standard pressures for cartridges
12g 2 1/2" 1 1/16 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. Service 2.7 tons = 7,952 psi; Max. 3.5 tons = 10,640 psi
12g 2" 7/8 oz. 2.36 Dr. Eq. (26 grains of 33 grain = 3 Dr.Eq. powder) Service 2.25 tons = 6,440 psi; Max. 3.0 = 8,960 psi

Under the 1954 Rules of Proof 2” chamber guns were proved for 2 3/4 tons = 8,193 psi max. service load.

WHAT WE DON'T KNOW
We've seen 2" guns marked 3/4, 7/8, 1 and 1 1/8 oz proof
Were the proof and service pressures for 3/4 oz. and 7/8 oz lower than 1 and 1 1/8 oz??

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some photos from Steve Helsley and one of his 2" guns.

You might ask about its proofs. He said it was bought in '41.


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F. P. Baker 2"
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...f-p--baker-in-20-ga.cfm?gun_id=100876180
F. P. Baker was a department store with a sporting goods and a gun department. Skimmin & Wood were known suppliers.

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
F. P. Baker 2"
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...f-p--baker-in-20-ga.cfm?gun_id=100876180
F. P. Baker was a department store with a sporting goods and a gun department. Skimmin & Wood were known suppliers.

That's a weird gun. Description says 2.5" 12 ga. Title says 20 gauge. At 6 lbs it's a nice 12 gauge if 2.5 or 2.75" but it is porky if it is a 2". As a 20, it's a lot of extra baggage. Any idea what it sold for?


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You might be correct Brent. A pic of the flats would help, but it was Cabela's frown

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
You might be correct Brent. A pic of the flats would help, but it was Cabela's frown

It is probably a 2.5" 12 gauge. It's a bit heavy for a 20, and for sure it is not a Skimin and Wood 2" action. Even with the poor photos, I can tell that.


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Preacher, I've been following this thread, but have not posted anything because I have no personal experience with either the Two Inch 12 Gauge guns, or reloading for them. I think it might be interesting to own and hunt with one, even though I own a number of very svelt smallbore doubles that are under or just over 6 lbs.

So I'm left wondering... do you actually own any Two Inch 12 Gauge guns, and have you done any actual reloading for them??? I ask this because you are the second most prolific poster in this Thread with 35 posts... second only to the nutty professor who recently bought a Two Inch 12 gauge gun, and is just starting to reload for it. He hates this forum and thinks it is a cybersecurity risk, but made 41 posts in this Thread, so I guess maybe his newfound enthusiasm has overcome his oft-stated disgust and fears.

It just seems like odd behavior, when contrasted with GLS, who has actually owned and hunted with these little 12's for some time, and obviously reloads to feed them. GLS has shared his enjoyment with the short 12's for years now. He has only 20 posts in this Thread. And Recoil Rob is another guy with bona-fide experience and ownership, yet he has only 9 posts on this subject.

So do you own several of these light little guns, and simply kept it to yourself??? Did you work with Borderbill in load development for them? How did you modify your reloading presses to load Two Inch shells? I'm just curious about what motivates people to attempt to display expertise in things where they have little to no actual experience. It reminds me of some guys I know who have Harley-Davidson tatoos, Harley jackets, Harley tee-shirts, Harley wallets on chains, Harley bandanas, etc., and can spout off Harley dates of manufacture, engine displacement, specifications, and just seem like real Harley-Davidson experts. Yet they have never owned a Harley-Davidson motorcycle. Since you have also acted like you know something about psychology and human behavior, I thought perhaps you could provide some insight into what motivates people to try to be things that they are not.


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Drew has connections in the gun world that I don’t have and has been invaluable in finding resources relevant to service pressure loads that are possibly in play with these two inch twelves. I’ve been in touch with him over the last few years in private correspondence. He also shoots with borderbill on occasion. While I have a couple of satisfactory recipes, they rely on plastic gas seals. I’ve had a three season saga of trying to develop all fiber wads for my 2” 12 ga. guns. Bill in AZ , Brent in IA and I have been sharing information in trying to perfect a technique for consistent, low pressure loads for our guns. I have yet to pressure test the loads, but have recently come up with a consistent velocity load according to my ProChrono Digital. My previous results were all over the speed range which initially caused me to blame my Chrono. I dispelled that notion by shooting factory loads which were as advertised. Another man gave me a tip that when he was professionally testing pressures and velocity in fiber loads, two nitro cards were better than one most likely due to a tipping of a single NC releasing gases unevenly. Stack height is important. The two nitro card technique is also emphasized in Lyman #39 (1953) which gave 5 scenarios of stack height and wad combinations. Of the 5 possibilities we only have room for the 2 NC and one 3/8" fiber wad which was next to the last in recommendation. My initial theory was that seating pressure wasn’t important with modern powders. However, seating pressure was more than just the compaction of powder. Modern plastic wads are cupped which allows gases to push against the sides, effectively sealing against hull, chamber, forcing cone and barrels minimizing the uneven escape of gases which affects velocity consistency. Seating pressure isn’t important in modern wads. Seventy years ago in Lyman #39, it discussed seating pressures with fiber wads of various powders including Red Dot (60 lbs. in one recipe) which is hardly obsolete. I’ll get back to seating pressure momentarily. I had success with consistent velocity using waxed cardboard cupped wads which I made with a hobby shop press which is depicted earlier in this thread.
However, the making of the wads and insertion into a hull can be tedious. Not so much a problem making a pocket full of shells for an armed walk in the quail and woodcock woods, but time consuming nonetheless. I had a Captain Obvious “Eureka” moment recently when I watched a YT video of hydraulic compression of common objects. Not only did the material compress downward, but also spread outwards. With 60 lbs. of pressure, a fiber wad in a cylinder (hull) not only compresses vertically, but pressure spreads the fiber wad to the sides, providing a tighter seal than just sitting there with crimping pressure alone. No doubt once the 60 lb. pressure is released, there is some spring back, but nowhere as near the spring back as with a tempered spring. There is remaining side pressure held in check with final crimping. I also experimented with coating .125” nitro cards in honey beeswax. I make thin puddles on a piece of aluminum foil in a skillet. Not as messy as dipping in a wax pot. With the combined waxed NC and 60 lbs. pressure, I was able to obtain consistent velocity for the first time. Without the waxed NC, but with 60 lbs. seating pressure, velocity wasn’t as consistent, but borderline usable for my purposes. It’s easy enough to wax the NC so I’ll continue to do so. The wax doesn’t provide protection against powder or lead fouling, but it seems to provide additional sealing. I decided to experiment with American Select as that’s what Brent and I have in abundance. American Select is used in a published low pressure load for vintage guns in longer shells. That was our starting point. Brent’s progress with lube was encouraging, but we both have concerns about potential powder contamination through grease migration. With black powder’s bulkier loads, not so much a problem, but with smaller nitro powder loads, there might be a potential problem. There are storage work “arounds” such as storing and carrying shells with crimp down, primer up. Once I develop a better ¾ oz. load’s consistency in velocity, I’ll send the 7/8 oz. load and 3/4 oz. load off for pressure testing. I saw no point in pressure testing before I attained consistent velocity. I shoot the rounds out of a modern firearm to avoid stress on the old doubles. I chrono my rounds at the manual’s recommended 5’ separation distance and pay attention to the recommendation to remove screens and avoid bright sunshine skies. I either shoot under cloudy conditions or in the shade of a building with an unobstructed view of the sky as recommended in the manual. Gil

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Gil, thank you very much for helping to make my point about the value of information from people who have actual real world experience with reloading and shooting the Two Inch 12, and various other topics such as metallurgy or Damascus barrels, versus those who habitually parrot what they read or see elsewhere. I seriously respect and appreciate the work and perseverance you have demonstrated in your load development, and your willingness to share it. Parrots and pretenders... not so much.

I just see a stark contrast between what you just posted, and the strange behavior of repetitive internet forum posts by those with little to no actual experience. Certainly you recall one former prominent poster who almost daily provided his "expertise" about all manner of doubles... yet he didn't even own a single sxs shotgun. Then there was another poser and liberal left fraud who frequently bragged about his "Award Winning Wines" and obviously imaginary personal relationships with famous and influential people. It turned out he was not a vintner, but merely the smallest grower who supplied grapes to an actual winery that bought grapes from his one acre vinyard. Another guy here imagines and makes unfounded assumptions that E.M. Reilly employed 300 or more gunmakers, yet loses his shit when pressed to provide actual proof. If you dare to question him, he will call you a Troll and other unflattering names.... while preaching about incivility. Then there are so-called gunsmith's who post images of work they "farmed-out" to others... without attribution to the actual craftsman involved. Welcome to the Internet, where anyone can pretend to be something they are not. I see such behavior as phoniness, and possibly intentionally deceptive. That's why I asked the Preacher to use his psychologist internet persona to explain it to me.

I'm not saying you couldn't learn something about Harley Davidson motorcycles from one of those wannabe bikers who collects catalogs, tee shirts, tattoos, or other regalia, I'm equally sure you could learn something about Damascus barrels from a guy who collects and provides tons of copy-and-paste research on the subject, yet admits to owing only one Damascus barreled L.C. Smith OO grade. I was just curious about why some people work so hard to project an air of expertise with subjects where they have little to zero actual experience, and get really pissed if you point that fact out.

And I am equally confused why the nutty professor would make 40 posts in any Thread on any Forum that he truely felt represented a cyber-threat. Is that simply crazy???... or is it a dishonest and hypocritical excuse to denigrate Dave Weber, and to justify a one man campaign to defund his forum???


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S&W strikes again. In speaking with a knowledgeable gunsmith earlier this year about the Poulin auction last year that had twenty 2' twelves, including two Scottish Dicksons, he corrected me and said they were S&W's rebadged as Dicksons, and that only a handful of 2" 12s were made by Dickson and he had one of them. Gil

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Another Skimin and Wood. That's a very nice gun, Drew. Price is maybe a little high, but reasonable give some of the features.


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Midland Gun 2 incher. Leaving for Texas tmrw.

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The date code looks to be AB = 1950

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Here are the wad stack recommendations from 70 years ago in Lyman #39. I believe Morris Baker would dispute lack of NC cards and using only wads in loads. His 2" 12 ga. rounds in RST's do just that. Gil
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Fiber cushion wads are tricky. I used 2 lubed cushion wads and no nitro card at all and created a load that tested at over 18,000 psi (average "only" 13,250 psi) while the same powder charge with 2 unlined nitro and one unused fiber wads tested at 5200 psi and only 660 fps.

Nitro wads, fiber wads, lube, and seating pressure are all interacting. In addition, the results from different makers of fiber wads have been wildly different. We have a lot to relearn about loading fiber wads. It's sort of like paper patched bullets all over again.


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Drew, at one time 2” guns had to pass the same proof as 2 1/2” guns. I think that is why that gun has a 1 1/8 ounce proof stamp. I sure would nit have shot any 1 1-8 loads in the 2” I had. Some of the factory loads would rattle your fillings. I can only imagine what a 1 1/8 ounce would be like.

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Yes, the Proof House declared in 35' that 2" would be proved at the max. service pressure of 2 1/2" (and 2 5/8") guns = 3 Dr. Eq. with 1 1/8 oz. shot = 3 1/4 tons by LUP or about 9,800 psi by Burrard's conversion

I went through the thread trying to document the proof level by dates:
33' - 7/8 oz.
35' - One 7/8 oz. and two 1 oz.
36', 37', 38' - one each and all 7/8 oz.
38' - 1 1/8 oz.
46' - 7/8 oz.
50' - 1 1/8 oz.
54' - 1 1/8 oz.
56' - 1 1/8 oz.
and the undated Alex Martin S&W 1 1/8 oz.
It appears that the proof pressures were the same, but the service LOAD was marked differently.

1947 edition of Burrard's The Modern Shotgun lists a "Low Velocity: 2" load with 2.2 Dr. Eq. (24 grains of a 33 grain powder) and 1 oz. shot. No pressure was provided.
It is possible those 2" guns marked 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz. were to use the lighter powder load?

This however from Henry Sharp, Shooting Times, 1939 back on p. 8 listing 2 loads for the 2", with the 1 oz. just introduced:
26 grains Curtis’s & Harvey “Diamond Smokeless” with 7/8 oz. shot = 2.36 Dr. Eq
28 grains "Empire" with 1 oz. shot = 2.55 Dr. Eq.

The "highest mean service pressure" for the 2 1/2” cartridge was lowered in 1954 to 3 tons - 8,960 psi and for the 2” cartridge to 2 3/4 tons = about 8,200 psi.
Standard service is about 75% of max. service

The 1955 edition of Burrard's lists standard load & pressures for 2" cartridges at 7/8 oz. 2.36 Dr. Eq. (26 grains of 33 grain = 3 Dr.Eq. powder) Service 2.25 tons = 6,440 psi; Max. Service 3.0 tons = 8,960 psi.

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Josh has listed a high condition 2" John Dickson & Son
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ase-ammo-available-.cfm?gun_id=102365947

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The date code 'T' is 1938-1939 and proved for 1 1/8 oz. which is the earliest we've seen at that oz.

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A 1946 Joseph Lang 2" proved for 7/8 oz.
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...on-2-quot-12-gauge-.cfm?gun_id=102352516

Webley & Scott 2". No mention of proof nor DOM frown
https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...ott-2-quot-12-gauge.cfm?gun_id=102319099

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The above is a re-badged Skimin & Wood. One giveaway is the J.A. initials on the left barrel. While Dickson did make a handful of 2" guns, lock, stock and barrels, this isn't one of them. A lovely gun, nonetheless. Gil

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Drew,
What are the differences in Standard Service and Max. Service as it applies to usage? How does that reflect what the average owner should load and use the gun?


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SAAMI says it another way Brent:
"Maximum average pressure for 2 3/4" and 3” shotgun shells will be 11,500 PSI +/- 900 psi, with some maximum extreme variability not to exceed an uber-max of 12,500 psi +/-900 psi"

So a SAAMI standard shell may actually run 13,400 psi and that would be the "Maximum Individual Service Working Limit" or per CIP "Maximal Statistical Individual Pressure"

And the pressure we should aim for is the "Standard Service" pressure.

Vic Venters, Shooting Sportsman, March-April 2012, “CIP Proof”
“Although the Maximum Mean Pressures for service loads for standard proof (850 BAR) guns are 740 BAR (10,733 psi), CIP regulated cartridge manufacturers typically work to lower pressures...between 450 BAR (6,527 psi) and 650 BAR (9,427 psi) as measured by CIP piezo transducers.”

Pressures published by Burrard in 1955
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Thanks Drew. I was thinking of Max Service as the upper bound of a 95 or 99% confidence interval, which is more or less about right.


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Back on p.3 Ted proved himself the sage of DoubleGun wink
"A 2” 12 gauge would make a lot of sense-if the 20 gauge hadn’t been invented."

Reviewing Burrard's 1947 2nd Edition of The Modern Shotgun and there is very little regarding the 2" 12g, but found this:
"The 2-inch 12-bore...was originally introduced as an alternative to the 20-bore (when desiring a lighter gun) and fired the standard 2 1/2-inch 20-bore charge of 3/4 ounce, its purpose being to eliminate the danger caused by the accidental intermingling of 12- and 20-bore cartridges...But experience proved that this shot charge was too light (related to lower pressures and velocity) so the shot charge was increased to the standard 2 1/2-inch 16-bore weight of 7/8 ounce."

The point of Lancaster's pre-1900 "Pygmies" 1 oz. load was to enable the sportsman to carry more shells, not a lighter gun.

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Originally Posted by Drew Hause
Back on p.3 Ted proved himself the sage of DoubleGun wink
"A 2” 12 gauge would make a lot of sense-if the 20 gauge hadn’t been invented."

Reviewing Burrard's 1947 2nd Edition of The Modern Shotgun and there is very little regarding the 2" 12g, but found this:
"The 2-inch 12-bore...was originally introduced as an alternative to the 20-bore (when desiring a lighter gun) and fired the standard 2 1/2-inch 20-bore charge of 3/4 ounce, its purpose being to eliminate the danger caused by the accidental intermingling of 12- and 20-bore cartridges...But experience proved that this shot charge was too light (related to lower pressures and velocity) so the shot charge was increased to the standard 2 1/2-inch 16-bore weight of 7/8 ounce."

The point of Lancaster's pre-1900 "Pygmies" 1 oz. load was to enable the sportsman to carry more shells, not a lighter gun.


The cheap, but, effective, Federal 20 gauge promo loads are showing up, in quantity, at the local Wally World-I use them to good effect trying to perfect my shooting off the right hand shoulder with my (GASP!!!) 1100 gas gun. My hope is to be somewhat proficient with one of the 20 gauge doubles about the place come fall. I tried my Brother’s 12 gauge 1100, and, damn if I don’t shoot better, and enjoy, the 20 gauge version, more.

Little is promised to us. Much less this bit of hope of mine, but, hope is all I’ve got.

Two inch 12 gauge ammunition has not been noted to be in stock. I would not consider that a criticism of Wally.

My late Father, 22 years active duty, 8 years of making reservist’s lives hell for one weekend a month, considered hunting trips to be gauge specific, to all participants. Logistics are a big deal to Marines, I’ve noticed.

Best,
Ted

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20s are fine, if that's what you like, but hunting is more to me than killing a bird. The 2" 12 has added immensely to my hunting season, and we are yet 2 months out from opening day. What Wally stocks or doesn't stock means nothing to me.


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Originally Posted by BrentD, Prof
20s are fine, if that's what you like, but hunting is more to me than killing a bird. The 2" 12 has added immensely to my hunting season, and we are yet 2 months out from opening day. What Wally stocks or doesn't stock means nothing to me.


“Immensely” you say. Exactly, how so? Sometimes, the easiest things, say, a 20 gauge over a 2” 12, are the best. I find less added kludge, not to mention less mental masturbation, along with Easter egg hunts for unobtainable kludge, far more rewarding.

Attempting to relearn to shoot, and undo 50 seasons of muscle memory has been hard enough, and cheap, good enough ammunition has been a blessing. Try shooting off your non shooting shoulder, and let us know how it goes for you. I have friends who gave it up for that reason, including a consulting doctor on my eye surgery. Four boxes of 20 gauge promo loads for $33 is a big help. Those same four boxes could occasionally be sniped for under $5 a box, two years ago, but, stuff changes, no?

Best,
Ted

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Becoming ambidextrous might be more in reach than we think. I had the left shoulder replaced a year ago. In two months I could clap hands overhead. In 5 I was totally finished with rehabilitation with full strength and flexibility.

But interesting phenomena was observed. I was doing 90 minutes of PT a day's in two 45 minute sessions on the left shoulder and back. It included a lot of work on the muscles supporting the shoulder blade and on the core including using resistance bands in a core twist exercise almost resembling a golf swing. I found last November that as a result, I suddenly could swing a left-handed golf club. I had worked for years at a young age perfecting a left handed jump shot and hook shot in basketball. Now looking back on it, physical therapy might have been more efficient.

Ted, I'm wondering if a really good physical therapist could give some exercises to reinforce your now required right-handedness?


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The only thing that needs to be right handed is my shooting.

What I find most difficult are the mental errors I make when playing the game. I caught myself holding the gun left handed when my turn came up on the last round of skeet. Sometimes, I dutifully keep my left eye open, just like I did for fifty seasons, and suffer some momentary befuddlement looking down the side of the gun in my right hand. Very simple stuff that is hard to keep at the front lobe. The sight picture has changed from what it used to be, but, it is hard to describe. The vision between the two eyes is so dramatically different there is no way to keep both eyes open, but, I have been trying to keep the left eye open as I mount the gun.

The shooting, when I get my ducks in a row at the line, is actually progressing nicely. I have a few perfect rounds under my belt. I’ve watched trap shooters on the line who had a compulsive looking routine on every shot, who would miss if they did something out of sequence or skipped a step. It seemed weird to me at the time, but, it might help to block the mental fumbles I seem to suffer.

Thanks for the tip. I’m guessing it is a mental game that will be resolved through the old standby, practice, practice, practice. Overcoming 50 years of muscle memory ain’t for sissies.

Best,
Ted

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Originally Posted by Ted Schefelbein
Originally Posted by BrentD, Prof
20s are fine, if that's what you like, but hunting is more to me than killing a bird. The 2" 12 has added immensely to my hunting season, and we are yet 2 months out from opening day. What Wally stocks or doesn't stock means nothing to me.


“Immensely” you say. Exactly, how so? Sometimes, the easiest things, say, a 20 gauge over a 2” 12, are the best. I find less added kludge, not to mention less mental masturbation, along with Easter egg hunts for unobtainable kludge, far more rewarding.

Attempting to relearn to shoot, and undo 50 seasons of muscle memory has been hard enough, and cheap, good enough ammunition has been a blessing. Try shooting off your non shooting shoulder, and let us know how it goes for you. I have friends who gave it up for that reason, including a consulting doctor on my eye surgery. Four boxes of 20 gauge promo loads for $33 is a big help. Those same four boxes could occasionally be sniped for under $5 a box, two years ago, but, stuff changes, no?

Best,
Ted


Ted,

My immense enjoyment in learning about, accruing kaccumulating?), and developing loads for a 2x12 has really nothing to do with learning shoot off the weak side which is on your agenda, but not mine.

So, let's see, what have I enjoyed immensely?
I spent 6 months surfing auctions and dealer websites looking at countless non 2x12s that I would never have enjoyed while tracking down most, if not all, of the 2x12 that have been for sale in the last 6-12 months.

Then, I have enjoyed learning about the history of 2x12s and the diversity (and lack of diversity, which is pretty cool since, in effect, very few people made the 2x12 happen).

Now, I'm wrestling with learning to load where few recipes exist, and I have to figure out my own strategies with the materials I have on hand. I enjoy the challenge, but most of all I enjoy collaborating with several others on this website and other sites who are also experimenting. Interacting with these people has been an immensely enjoyable experience all of its own.

Maybe last, though intangibles are hard to identify so I might be overlooking something, is anticipating opening my hunting season in Minnesota or Michigan and straifing grouse out of the trees and sky with a new and very different gun that i have tuned to the job at hand. Who buys a new gun and doesn't imagine that!?!? Reality, of course, may be much different, but not less enjoyable.

In any event, now I own two 2x12s (soon to be one). I think they are probably the finest two 2x12s to be sold in the last 6 months outside if the 5-figure Purdeys and H&Hs. They are lovely guns, quicker than lightning, and just a whole new dimension to shooting after decades of 6.5-7.5# guns. I could have bought a 20, probably for more money, but anyone could do that. Hell, I could just hunt with my old 870 express. But I don't.

In the end, I am having a grand time that I would not be having without chasing the mythical unicorn that is the 2x12.

Good luck with chasing your own unicorns, whatever they may be. I hope that you will be successful and become less of a sourpus as a result.

Cheers! smile


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Sourpuss?


Clearly, you didn't know Klunk, or Don Moody.

Best,
Ted

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The eponymous Don "Cowboy" Moody. Rest his soul. Gil