doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com looking to get an English Setter, need suggestions

I would like to get an English Setter and would appreciate any pros and cons of breeders that you know. I would like a dog for hunting grouse, woodcock, and maybe a pheasant hunt every few years. I need soemthing that would hunt fairly close and slow.

I am in northern MN and ideally would like to find a puppy in MN, WI, or IA, but open to anything. Been looking at web sites, but have no idea who is good for me. In the past I have owned A LOT of dogs, but they were running dogs, tree dogs, and cow dogs. This will be my first bird dog. Not looking to spend the price of a new double shotgun here, just want a puppy out of solid hunting stock.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Marc:

They are in Arkansas though, but check with Drenda at http://www.llewellin.com. She has been most helpful in my attempt at searching for a Tricolor Belton female.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Hi Marc:

Post your question on UPLANDJOURNAL.COM There are many good people who will be willing to give you advice.

Good luck,

Franchi

You will not go wrong with a dog from this Gal. I love mine.
http://www.beirlsetters.com/Index2.html
She's in Wisconsin also.

Also, this place in Minn.
http://www.setterhills.com/

Not sure ES would do it, they are running dogs. Slow ES is bad hunting dog.
You need German drathaar or kurzhaar I believe.

I recently picked up my first hunting dog, an English Setter.

I got her from a friend in Michigan on the advice of other friends. I wish I could help you out, but I am such a newbie at this my advice wouldn't be worth much.


I did spend that weekend hunting the entire time over the setters of friends. Great fun but some of them are big runners!

Geno is on the right track. A setter is going to range. You may want to consider a Brit. Spaniel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Britany is a very good hunting dog, works pretty close, but he's not slow at all, I'd say vice versa

First of all most English Setters in the Northeast are breed for grouse and woodcock. That means a close working dog. If you get a puppy that is your job to make him stay close. The other thing is that for grouse as soon as he gets the scent he has to point, no creeping, and that is your job also. As few have posted there are good breeders in your state. I highly recommend a dog that was bred from the DeCoverly Kennels in Pa. Also Pinecobles in N.Y. near Copperstown. Both breeders the lineage goes back to Ryman's Old Hemlock, and for Pinecobles also goes to Aspenglow, I believe they are either Wi. or Minn.
Picture of 16 month old Max from both of those kennels. Wieghs 65.7 lbs and is 27" at the shoulders.



First male I have ever owned, and I think he is going to be good. Very smart.

Remember, you can always get a dog to hunt close, but not the other way around.

If hunting just pheasants, you might find 1 out of 100 pointing type dogs that can do the job right. Flushing type or retrievers are the best, and I'm not talkling the pen-reared pheasants you see on most shows.

If you go to the website that Dave M posted, Setter Hills. You will see that their breeding stock is from Pinecobles.

Thanks for the info and please keep suggestions coming!

A friend, and member of this board, in WI has an English setter and he reccomended the Ryman and Old Hemlock as well. He warned me that competition bloodlines would be speed demons, which is not what I am after.

How popular are English Setters these days? I did a search on this site before asking my question, but I only got about a dozen hits from the past year. I figured they would have been mentioend more than that.

JDW-

What did you mean by, "Remember, you can always get a dog to hunt close, but not the other way around" ? I have never owned a bird dog, so I am very green at this. Used to own between 15 and 25 dogs at any one time for many years, but most were running dogs.

It's easier to train a dog to work close, than it is to get him to range out.

Mark, it's easy to get a dog to stay in close, up to 35 yards, but when you see those big ranging pointers and setters in the big field trials way out there that takes time to do. From what I know, you train him by letting him out and run out there, bring him back in, kennel him and repeat that day in and day out. After a while that all he knows is to run way out there.

The best way to find out how the breeders dogs hunt is to have him take them out and see how they range.

It's easier to put the "whoa" than the "go" into a dog that lacks one or the other. Check out the parents and offspring of the parents' previous litters to see what the breeder is producing. As a novice and wanting a close-working dog, you will be sorry for ten years if you get a "hot" dog and expect it to be easy to train to hunt close. There are close-working English Setters out there. You just have to do your homework.

I currently own 4 English Setters and have had 9 total. Great upland dogs.
I would add to your search http://www.nstra.org look under classifieds. Many breeders and owner breeders advertise here, and not all of the dogs are "race" dogs. I have seen litters some in your areas.
My family and I enjoy this breed, Easy to have in the house, easy on cats and other neighborhood vermin, soft and friendly. They really turn it on when the odor of a wild bird catches them!
Do inquire about hip certification asd Setters have a fairly high incidence of issues there.
Good Luck!

I don't much care for those big slavering dogs as my friend Tom Griffiths of Iowa called George Bird Evans dogs. I go for the small Setters. Half a dozen guys I shot with back at the Potomac River Gun Club in Indianhead, Maryland, had Mahoney Setters, sna did a lot of Grouse and Woodcock hunting all thru New England.

http://www.bdarn.com/mahoney/

Then I retired and moved out here and Gene is right nearby. My dog on a Pheasant --



Her daughter on a covey of Quail --



Both go 29 pounds.

Nice Setters Researcher!
The second bitch is very nearly a twin to two of my setters which are also Mahoney dogs out of "Magic". ---I don't know how to attach photos.
My dogs will work closer in thicker cover and range bigger if we're looking for chukars or Gambels

This one on JDW's photo looks good to me, but I strongly prefer hunting upland dogs of weight around 55 pounds and 25" tall in shoulders. Too heavy and tall dogs are not stylish. At the same time tall dogs got better nose, than small dogs.
English Setter 29 pounds sounds spaniel with point to me

How can the size of a dog of any breed have anything to do with how his nose works? That's just not logical. Think of some of the sub 25# FB English Cockers hunting out there every day.

There was military purpose reseaching re.dogs in USSR, very seriuos science people did it. I read some not secret now article from this reseach and there was statement, that in general tall dogs got better nose, than the small one of the same breed. As I remember this correctly every 4" in shoulders add aprx. 10% of distance to dog nose.
Actually it's physics and nothing else I believe. If your tall dog brings his head low most of the time, it's not about your dog

Interesting information from Geno. The best dog that I ever had was an English Setter 39 Lbs and could run hard all day or hunt up short. This dog would stand on his hind legs when trying to get sent off from the wind, he would do this high sniffing many times during the days hunt.
David Lien

OK...understand now. Like climbing a tree to get a better look around. But if there are inversion conditions with lots of ground scent, I guess the shorter dog would excell. Interesting premise. Thanks.

I understand what Geno is talking about. Setters, Pointers hunt with their head high, whereas shorthairs, vizslas, spanials and most of the other breeds hunt closer to the ground or right on the ground. On a wet/damp day they all excel, but on dry days low humidity a higher head dog will excel, plus they are able to cover more ground.

Marc:

I live and hunt in MN. I have been running English Setter Bird Dogs since 1980. Before that I had Labs and Springers. The dogs I hunt are all locally bred gun dogs. The females weigh 35-45lbs., the males 40-55lbs. They are short coated, athletic dogs that run but hunt for the gun. Furthermore, they are calm, pleasant house pets in the off season. One of the more knowledgeable setter trainers and breeders in the country is in Sandstone, MN. His name is Jerry Kolter and he and his wife Betsy run Northwoods Kennels http://www.northwoodsbirddogs.com/.

He could do a good job of matching you up with a pup and give you plenty of references as to what he produces for dogs. If you decide to talk to Jerry tell him Jay suggested it as we are longtime friends.

Anyway, here are a few examples of the type of dog I'm talking about and similar to the type Jerry produces.

If anyone want, I can give the link to scans 10 pages from Russian hunting journal re. dog nose. Very interesting information with a lot of scientific data. Unfortunatly it's in Russian only, but it worth to be translated.

Geno:

I know that it would be trouble to translate & scan, but I would like to read it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Marc, you are right about not seeing a lot of English Setters, but I think they are making a comeback. When I was 15 years old (61 now) I had my first bird dog, a tri-color setter out of Ryman stock in Northern N.J. I believe. Actually had 2, brother and sister, kept outside and the 1 got to be a handfull (male) so I gave him away. Kept the female and at the time my good friend had a Vizsla and we worked these dogs all the time on pen raised quail. It didn't take long to train these dogs but you had to let them know that you were the boss. No electronic collars then. Long check ropes and commands. She turned out to be a very good dog on pheasants, wild and pen-raised, quail (wild) and woodcock. Had her for 9 years, developed cancer because I didn't have her spayed. Missed her for a long time. She turned out to be a house dog and in my opinion that is the best way to have them. You get to know their idiosyncracies and they yours.
Had another ES after than, this one ranged and had to be controlled. Hunted like no-tomarrow, but didn't care if you were there or not.
Went to Brittanies after that, out of a famous kennel in New Jersey, owner Jack Cash. Good dogs, but not the same as a setter.
Had a 20 year span no dogs and finally after I retired and for alamost 2 years going back and forth to New York to breed my friend's female, DeCoverly's Bella Sera, it finally took and she had 7 males and 1 female. Had my choice of litter and decided on a male.
Just to give you an idea of the genetics of my dog, here are a few more pictures at various months.

Max at 9 weeks, the first week I had him and the first time I threw a training dummy.


Max at 4 months on quail, you could walk all around him and he will not rush in.


So whatever breeder you get them from, just pick out a nice looking dog, even though an ugly dog hunts good, it is still ugly.
Also don't be fooled into the wing on a stick thing, none hunting dogs will flash point it also. Just a gimmick. Real birds make a dog and the more they see the better they get

I now have my first hunting dog, an English Setter.



14 weeks and 26 pounds.

Mike, and a fine looking one at that, a nice orange belton. Don't let him get too big, he might turn into one of those "big slavering dogs"