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That the best you got? You are hilarious.

Brent, you’re as sharp as a bowling ball. You thinking otherwise, now that’s really hilarious!!! 🤣🤣
A real mental “larper”. 😂

Fine. If it makes you feel better, stick with it. You are still living in La La Land preaching fake facts that even you don't believe.

YOU read through those studies and YOU show us where they definitively show that the studied birds didn’t die from Avian Cholera or bird flu. I’m not talking about a biologist just “knowing” what they think they died from, I’m talking about actual, real scientific analysis proving empirically that these dead birds didn’t have, weren't carrying and ultimately died from an avian disease. Are you saying that there were no bird flu or cholera outbreaks during those times I stated? What if the bird had cholera or flu when it died but had lead in its system (from what source, who knows) List its death like a Covid death?? Died from cancer but had Covid so it’s a Covid death? Talk about lala land. How convenient for an agenda huh.
Address my remarks about South America. Where did I lie or tell tall tales out of school?? Don’t be upset with guys like me who question the “science”. I’m not one of your students that’s afraid to piss the professor off. I know, you’re not used to that. I’m surprised you stick around here, having to deal with all of us mental midgets and smart asses. There’s tons of examples over the years that prove the science was absolutely wrong in all sorts of fields & disciplines. Science is to be questioned and reviewed, if it wasn’t we’d still be sticking leaches on a sick person or taking mercury as a medicine. Ya, that was scientist that told people that was all good too.

And while you’re at it, please address Keith’s statements in his post.

In the dark ages of the 60s, finding lead pellets in the gizzards of dead waterfowl was felt to be evidence of lead poisoning
https://archive.org/details/ontariofishwildlv5n2onta/page/8/mode/2up



Criteria from the 80s



Abstract from 2017
https://www.jstor.org/stable/90010761

Avian cholera and lead poisoning may co-exist, and it is very likely that lead poisoning may increase lethality from avian cholera and avian botulism
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6887448/

Not to mention fatal blood lead levels. Pretty simple to diagnose. It was news to me (and the rest of the planet) that dramatically elevated blood lead levels was a symptom of Avian Cholera. That's part of the comedy here, I guess.

Stop Brent. Just Stop. Stop being so dense.

My comment on the signs & symptoms was directly aimed at the post “LGF” had about his experience in 1968 that he shared. How in the hell did that warden deduce that the bird died of lead poisoning?? Because it had lead in its gizzard??? Birds have all kinds of things in their gizzards, including asphalt, steel, contaminants that would otherwise be deemed toxic., etc. Did he do a blood test? Did he study organ damage? Did he definitively isolate the source of the lead in that birds blood? Did they test the dead bird for avian disease and eliminate that from the equation?? Nah. The good warden didn’t. He saw lead in its gizzard and a green rear end and came up with the conclusion all on his un-scientific own didn’t he? If you’re now disputing that Avian cholera or flu doesn’t cause that exact set of described signs coming from the rear end of a duck…then you are dumber than a bag of hammers. And his so called “vast amounts of research” comment is also being disputed.
When you gonna comment on Keith’s post?


LGf’s comment:
“I learned about lead shot in 1968, from a warden at Sauvie Island, outside of Portland. He talked about picking up hundreds of 'greenies', ducks dead or dying with their butts stained green from the undigested vegetation dribbling out the back because lead shot in their gizzards prevented digestion. A vast amount of research since then showed that ingested lead kills birds; free-flying condors in California are trapped annually and put through a chelation process, broadly similar to dialysis, to remove lead from their blood”.

Hey Brent, When are you going to contribute monetarily to this website which you seem to use with your pontifications more so than the majority of others? Surely you don’t want to be thought of as a free loader…..or do you????

Goody! Brent has rejoined the discussion. Having read the good Dr. Drew's links, at least skimmed, then I would ask. After nearly 40 years of no tox shot has there been a documented,(proved) mass die off? Looks like most suffered a less than 3% mortality on a limited number of ducks, sporadically, in certain locations dependent on weather. Die offs were limited to specific locations dependent on the type of bottom and depth of the marsh. Different species are affected differently. Available food seems to play a role. Could protection of nesting habitat mitigate the losses?
Next questions;
How many fewer hunters today as opposed to 1970, 80? Does anyone seriously think that hunter's numbers will increase? Not in the near future I'd sadly wager. I'm not personally interested in hunting waterfowl, some are, I support your efforts! This raises the question. On average how many rounds would you shoot in a season? I find hunting grouse and pheasant that a couple boxes maybe three usually suffice. I mean you can only eat so many. There is a possession limit after all.
Chief

Article from 2022 reviewing data from Illinois 1981-2017 and primarily addressing crippling rates, which did increase after the lead ban but dropped to the pre-ban levels, likely related to limited the distance of shots taken
Fewer duck hunters, and more geese hunters
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/wlb3.01001

Black duck lead levels in N.J. 1978 to 2017 from the Journal of Fish and Wildfowl Management, 6-2021
"The prevalence of ducks with blood lead levels 1.0 ppm, considered clinically evident toxicity, declined from 19% in 1978 to 1% in 2017."
The abstract however does not estimate a change in black duck mortality.

This is the only article I could find estimating the decrease mortality after the ban; in the July 2000 Journal of Wildlife Management
The article was cited by Brent back in 2006
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=243004&page=6
The thread went to 26 pages
We examined the extent to which ingested nontoxic (steel and bismuth-tin) shotgun pellets replaced toxic (lead) pellets in ducks harvested in the Mississippi Flyway during the 1996 and 1997 hunting seasons (fifth and sixth yr after nationwide conversion to nontoxic shot). Gizzards were collected from 16,651 ducks and processed for the presence of pellets. Prevalences of ingested pellets were 8.9% for 15,147 mallards (Anas platyrhynchos), 12.7% for 749 ring-necked ducks (Aythya collaris), 4.3% for 579 scaups (Aythya affinis and A. marila), and 9.7% for 176 canvasbacks (Aythya valisineria). For gizzards with ingested pellets, as much as 68% of mallard, 45% of ring-necked duck, 44% of scaup, and 71% of canvasback contained only nontoxic pellets.
We estimated that nontoxic shot reduced mortality from lead poisoning in Mississippi Flyway mallards by 64%. Ingestion of ≥2 toxic pellets declined by as much as 78%. To the extent that our findings apply to other species and flyways in North America, an estimated 1.4 million ducks in the 1997 fall continental flight of 90 million were spared from fatal lead poisoning.

That "64%" reduction is repeated now over and over in every Green blog and website

The survival data is complicated by the fact that there is only a 30-50% first years survival rate for ducks, and deaths from avian influenza A(H5N1), avian cholera & botulism, and aflatoxicosis have increased