doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Damascus explained

Raimey - you aren't going to crack the speed of sound in a gun barrel. The powder gas is hot enough that you won't go that fast. Also, no amount of pressure will cause the gas to exceed Mach one (speed of sound for existing conditions and not a fixed velocity) in a straight wall bore. A convergent nozzle section can achieve Mach one, but you must add a divergent section to exceed Mach one. Excess pressure will only increase the density of the gas, but not the velocity, as you approach the speed of sound. Post back if any of that begs questions - I ought to be able to explain it.

So, pV = nRT has a larger effect than the velocity itself, which is at or greater than the speed of sound in a vacuum?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The pressure/volume/temperature relationship doesn't have a lot to do with sonic velocity. There is no sonic velocity in a vacuum as there is no sonic part - you have to have a fluid present to have an sonic pressure waves. No waves, not wave velocity.

This is a fascinating thread, and I don't know where it will lead.Richard Akehurst in his book 'Game Guns & Rifles' by the Sportsmans Press has a lot to say about the manufacture of Damascus, he mentions Greener's and the Birmingham Proof Houses Tests and concerns about 'inferior' Belgian wares.Ken Davies's H&H book 'The Better Shot' shows some gorgeous examples.Remember Iron Forging was perfected by my family (Big Head)here in the Severn Gorge ( Ironbridge)so I think our Museums may have some interesting data available. But where do we start? It must be remembered that Greener was a master of self publicity, did he do so much? or did he ride on the backs of many journeymen craftsmen who were only concerned with earning a crust?There is no doubt in my mind we owe a lot to Greeners for imparting the knowledge, but was there far more works of art lost in time?Or sitting in the archives of the Museums of Birmingham, Wednesbury, Shrewsbury?

"Or sitting in the archives of the Museums of Birmingham, Wednesbury, Shrewsbury?"

Exactly Peter. W. Greener claimed to have invented Laminated Steel, but I've found no patent, nor did he name his invention. With his penchant for self-promotion (ie. Greener cross-bolt & Greener side safety) one would think 'Greener Laminated Steel' would be found stamped on his guns.
Might have to make the trip, but do they speak American in Wednesbury?

Just found W.W. Greener's The Gun, 9th edition as an On-line book, but not all the pages are available
http://books.google.com/books?id=2-m8epN2hLIC&dq=greener+crossbolt

Gloria a Dios-we have an answer on p. 230 (following a description of mixing the iron and steel together to form the bloom)
"In the best silver-steel Damascus, used by the author, the exact proportions of iron and steel used are such as have been found by experiment to give the greatest strength; the figure is fine and uniform."
This HAS to be what he refers to as Laminated Steel!

ellenbr....ask Highsmith his thoughts on Greener.

I see. I was referring to the nominal speed of sound and was thinking of the wave of a laser beam in a vacuum with an index of refraction of 1. My error. What is the max velocity that the expanding gas accelerates the shot charge down the tubes? Well, at the barrel/outside interface does the shot charge have the greatest velocity? I am interested as to how the speed of the whole lot of wad(possibly a little powder) & shot makes the transition from below the speed of sound to a velocity greater than the speed of sound. Doesn't the group velocity of the shotstring travel near or above 345 meters per second, or am I mistaken? Thanks for taking the time to educate me.

JOe: I quizzed Mr. Highsmith about the Brits Damascus & the impact of the Moor's influence on barrel types. His response was that I need to forgot researching such an unpopular & worthless topic and research something worth while like the Limey's Whitworth steel. And much like Jackie Gleason's response to a "germane to the situation", Mr. Highsmith said that the Moors were G**D*** Rednecks and don't bring them up again.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"This is a fascinating thread, and I don't know where it will lead.Richard Akehurst in his book 'Game Guns & Rifles' by the Sportsmans Press has a lot to say about the manufacture of Damascus, he mentions Greener's and the Birmingham Proof Houses Tests and concerns about 'inferior' Belgian wares.Ken Davies's H&H book 'The Better Shot' shows some gorgeous examples.Remember Iron Forging was perfected by my family (Big Head)here in the Severn Gorge ( Ironbridge)so I think our Museums may have some interesting data available. But where do we start? It must be remembered that Greener was a master of self publicity, did he do so much? or did he ride on the backs of many journeymen craftsmen who were only concerned with earning a crust?There is no doubt in my mind we owe a lot to Greeners for imparting the knowledge, but was there far more works of art lost in time?Or sitting in the archives of the Museums of Birmingham, Wednesbury, Shrewsbury? "


Thanks for a different perspective and insight. Greener probably would have made an excellent politician. Can you provide any references or descriptions with a timeline of the different Damascus types of the names you mention?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ideal. Then that would equate Silver Steel Damascus to Laminated Steel and the old laminated steel would have been similar to 2 rib-band twist after experiencing the 3 ton forge hammer?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse