doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Straight Grip Lefever Shotguns

A recent offering for a straight grip H Grade Lefever on Gunbroker is what prompted me to start this topic:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/958263336

Straight grip Lefevers are not very common. I'd guess that less than one percent of the total production were built in that configuration. It is said that all of the Lefever shotguns that are original straight grip guns have a long straight trigger guard tang. Those tangs are much longer than the tang of the pistol grip or semi-pistol grip guns. But I have seen several that looked to be original, yet they had a short, straight trigger guard tang such as the one on this H Grade in the Gunbroker link above. Here are pics of both types of trigger guards. I thought about bidding on it, just to have the opportunity to look for a serial number stamped into the wood under the guard tang. I'm wondering if both are original, or if the shorter version has been altered.





I have seen a few that were obviously restocked, and simply had the original trigger guard bent to fit the new straight stock. I saw one that had a long tang that had apparently had material welded on to convert it to a long tang configuration. The weld job wasn't great, and it showed up in the bluing too. This particular H Grade has me stumped though. If the stock is not original, then whoever made it did a very good job of making it look correct. Even the flaws in the checkering of the buttstock and forend seem to match. The inletting seems right, and both pieces of wood seem to be very similar too, right down to the fiddleback grain. The nose of the comb did look a little high to me, and lacks fluting. But a lot of H grades did not have the flutes that are found on higher grade guns.

So what do the Lefever guys here think? And if you own a straight grip Lefever gun, does it have a long trigger guard tang? If not, does it appear to be original or restocked?

I have only owned one straight stocked Lefever which I bought close to 25 years ago from FE Sandlin. I only have one picture of the now long gone gun and it does not show the trigger guard. If I recall correctly, and I think I do, that gun had a short trigger guard and appeared to be original. If it had been a little longer with a bit less drop I would likely still own that gun, it served me well as a backup on a trip to Montana when I tripped and damaged an already repaired stock on a British boxlock. Great trip, lots of birds both Pheasants and Waterfowl. That little dog was a firecracker, talented as could be but it bit on the wildside. We were a good match for one another.

I feel it has when they were built as for having long or short tangs. Or by who built them. If they were built by Dan they have long tangs.

I have two H grade with long tangs, one G with long tang and one G with short tang that are original, not re-stocks. I have one E which has a long tang and a F grade with a long tang. So based off my small sample most were long tangs. The G grade with a short tang might have been a rush job. I have seen a lot of odd combinations on LeFevers and some you have to conclude they were using what was on hand, to quickly fill orders instead of losing a sale. Barrels being Damascus instead of twist on a H grade or wood clearly better than expected for a grade. LeFevers are truly like a box of chocolates in that you never know what you are getting until you get it in hand and open it up. The oddest two examples I wish I had bought was a DS with a twist and Damascus barrel combination or the DS which had a dolls head.

Thanks for the replies. So far, it confirms what I had thought. I myself have two H Grade straight grip guns that have the long tang, and a straight grip G that has the short tang. One of the H grades has very high drop at heel and comb dimensions, which is far different than what we often see on many vintage doubles. As I recall, the DAH is only about 1 1/2" which is way too high for me.

I have learned to expect the unexpected with these guns. The very first DS grade I bought had dolls head twist barrels, capped pistol grip stock, the LAC monogram buttplate, and cocking indicators. I was a bit disappointed at first because I bought it when I was still under the belief that Damascus and Twist barrels were unsafe to shoot. Robert Elliot, the author of the Lefever books, told me I should be happy to have it because it was a much more scarce variation than the typical DS grade. Another unusual one I have is a 12 gauge G grade that has arrowhead shaped drop points on the stock behind the sideplates. I thought it was probably restocked, but the correct serial number is stamped into the wood under the trigger guard tang. I've seen a couple others with the same style drop points, but they were higher grade guns. I suppose it could have been a lunch box special or a gun built for an employee. It seems like whenever I see one with unusual features, the nontypical feature is something normally seen on higher grade guns, such as Damascus barrels on an H or Krupp fluid steel barrels on an F grade. I think that when they made substitutions to complete an order, they would give the customer more for his money, but never less.

Agreed the straight grip Lefevers are pretty rare. I have only owed a few. A 20 ga. XX frame straight grip would be a gem.
The 2 straight grips I have for sale in the classified section are original long tang styles. I had not ever seen a short tang straight grip gun until this post. What about the the idea that they were originally pistol or semi-pistol stocks that were sent back to Lefever to convert to straight grips?
The fluting in the stock comb also seems to be fade with later serial # guns. I have seen some late E's with out it.

I rarely speak as if I know something as a fact, but I will bite on this one. I love Lefevers and I love a straight grip. They are certainly far less common but the 1% assessment above is a little dramatic. Mathematically that just doesn’t add up. Uncommon? Rare? Scarce? Yes.
I can go further into photos, examples I’ve owned, examples I’ve seen, etc. but I’m going to refer to the specific question of the short Tang.
I have yet to see an original straight grip with a short tang in any Lefever configurations and by that I mean nice guns, graded guns, guns I’ve owned, and guns too junkie to purchase. I am not saying never and if KYJon says he owns one I take that as gospel but sure would like to see photos.

I saw the gun in question and did not even put it on my watchlist as I immediately thought it was an alteration. Top line of the checkering is not long enough front to rear and should continue rearward closer to the tang screw. The “meat” of the checkering doesn’t properly fill the grip. The comb looks unusually high because of the proportion where the grip knob was cut off the bottom and the bottom line of the stock resized to fit. It is also my opinion that the checkering lines that meet on the bottom would have run parallel to the center line of the gun and not radiused out as they are. The factory had patterns, and they followed them. It was not So loose as to miss the grip coverage and the bottom line just because somebody felt like doing something different that day.

If I am wrong I think somebody got an absolute steal as I would’ve paid more than double that for the same gun with an original straight grip.

In my personal experience the only two MAKERS that I have seen short rounded tip tang guns that were original straight grips came from Tobin(owned two seen 4) and Wilkes-Bare (own 1), And I would submit the Wilkes-Bare for a second opinion.

My little eight gauge C grade is a straight grip. I don't have a lot of experience with eight gauge Lefevers, so I don't know how common they are.

Eightbore, my guess is that’s about 2 straight grips of 30 8 bores (Still well over the 1 percent mark!)

Mark, you have me wondering if my G is legit, I think it is and always thought it was a cleanup parts gun or rush to fill an order gun. I’ve seen higher grade marked barrels on low grade guns and figured they were some reason for the upgrade, like rush orders or putting on a set of32” barrels on a gun made with 30” barrels to fill an order. On my gun the stock looks factory and aged like the gun, not a later replacement. The lines don’t match up from a pistol grip to straight grip conversions. We have all seen some poorly done conversion.

I don’t recall if I pulled the trigger guard to see if the serial number or grade is stamped. It may be a few days before I can get a chance to pull it off for a good look, see. But I have seen a couple without stamps so the lack is not a certain disqualifier. For that matter nothing makes it impossible to stamp it to match.

I almost bought a B or C grade which had a stock with plainer wood than I expected and no frame or barrel stamp. With the sellers permission, I pulled the trigger guard to see if the Grade or Serial number was marked. No marking we’re present. None at all and it did not look like any ever did so I concluded it might be a switched stock with a very long ago checkering upgrade or this was just the best blank on hand. So it’s real grade was unproven. For the asking price not knowing was too big of a gamble to me. I would not be amazed to see that same gun with a stamp today. I understand grade stamps were added to stop retailers from claiming low grade guns were higher grade guns.

On the top picture with the straight stock and short tang, does the termination of the checkering at the end of the trigger guard tang look proper ? Could the checkering at that point be redone to meet the original pistol grip checkering?

post deleted due to duplicate post

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In retrospect, I'd have to concede that my estimate of less than 1 percent of production for straight grip Lefevers is probably incorrect. 1 percent would be only roughly 600 guns total. But based upon my observations from many years of looking at Lefever listings on various Auction and Dealer websites, I'd be quite confident in saying that no more than 5 percent were built as straight grip guns.

In addition to that, I'd add the fact that there absolutely were variations in checkering patterns, flutes at the nose of the comb,, etc. I seriously fail to see how altering or totally removing a pistol grip or semi-pistol grip could conceivably change the height or dimensions of the comb nose. I did notice it seemed unusually high in the auction photos, but that does not confirm that the stock is non-original. The long tang H grade I own that has very little drop is definitely original, but also quite unconventional in stock dimensions. It is also very nicely figured wood compared to the average H grade. My guess is that the original owner ordered it with very high DAH and DAC dimensions, and quite possibly requested nicer wood too. Lefever accomodated special orders and requests.

Speaking of off the wall non-standard Lefever guns... The I grade was supposed to be made in 12 gauge only. But I know of four in 16 gauge. I own two of them, and one of mine also has automatic ejectors. And the H grade was supposed to be built in 20, 16, and 12 gauge only. But I have one that is a 10 gauge. I have never heard of or seen another 10 gauge H grade. So when Ky jon says he has an original short tang straight grip Lefever, I can easily believe him. Lefever didn't build cookie-cutter guns. There are lots of unusual variations that many people incorrectly attribute to the relatively few that were assembled by Ithaca Gun Co. after the sale.

Keith I think you asked for the opinion? 100% without wavering that is not an original piece.
I think supplementary ideas :
If it was right we wouldn’t have raised the question.
I think the paltry sum it brought hammers that point home.

In any case just to clarify. Re: the comb. I am certainly not suggesting it was raised. I am not even saying it is high. I am saying the loss of wood below changes the perception/ general
Lines and appearance.

Certainly it could be recheckered- and surely was if (WHEN) converted. Show me any original straight grip checkering on any maker that curves out on the bottom like that.

Yes Marks_21, I did ask for an opinion, and appreciate yours as much as the others. You are obviously 100% convinced that the one recently sold on Gunbroker is just another that has been altered from pistol or semi-pistol grip configuration, and do not believe that any other short tang gun you've seen is original either. Thanks for your opinion. At this point, the Jury is still considering evidence, and most of the witnesses have a differing opinion. BTW, I would say that the nose of the comb on that H Grade actually is higher than average, and that mere perception, caused by the possible removal of a pistol grip, has nothing to do with it.

Others, including myself, SKB, and KyJon have seen and/or owned Lefever guns with the short guard tang that appear original. GSPWillie has never seen one with the short tang. I know that KyJon has owned a number of Lefever guns, and having read every word he ever posted here about his Lefever guns, I know he is pretty knowledegable about them. He has also done enough restocking jobs to be able to recognize what is original wood, and what isn't. I also agree with his observation that the long tang variety is probably more common than short tang guns that at least appear to be original. I myself am not 100% sure about the one that recently sold on Gunbroker. It was a handy picture that I could quickly grab and post. I said I was curious, but I wasn't curious enough to bid over $500.00 on an H grade with other condition issues, just to get a closer look. Given the recoil pad, short LOP, and overall condition, I do not think the hammer price was "paltry", especially after adding in shipping, insurance, FFL transfer, etc. I've seen better Lefever guns that are more scarce sell for less, so the auction price of one gun proves very little. That 16 gauge automatic ejector I Grade I have was listed as a "Field Grade 12 Gauge Lefever" on a GunBroker Auction. It is in good condition, and may be more rare than a 1000 Dollar Grade, assuming it is indeed one of a kind. Do you know of any others? The auction pictures clearly showed the water table with the I Grade stamp, the presence of auto-ejectors, and the XX indicating it was a more desirable and more valuable small bore gun. Yet I paid about what the average DS non-ejector 12 Gauge in similar condition was selling for at that time. It sold cheap because none of the many people who look at GunBroker listings saw what I saw. I was very relieved as the auction ended, that no one else noticed that this was a very unusual and scarce I Grade.

Bob Noble apparently feels that long tang guns were built when Dan Lefever was in charge, and that the short tang variation is something that may have been done after the Durston's took over. I think he may be on to something there. He has probably studied and looked at as many Lefever guns as anyone alive, in his decades long quest to collect serial numbers and attempt to decipher some of the mysteries and questions we have due to the lack of any factory records. So I do give more weight to his opinions than many others who simply repeat everything that has been said and written about these guns.

And I absolutely believe that a lot of what has been written and repeated about Lefever guns is totally wrong, especially the nonsense that absolutely anything out of the ordinary must be attributed to Ithaca Gun Co. assembly. A lack of solid evidence or factory records can do that. And the same thing can happen when someone forcefully states an opinion as Gospel, and it gets repeated by others for years and years. Asking a question and getting as many replies as possible was my only motivation for starting this thread. My question was not simply about the originality of this one H Grade gun. My hope is that more Lefever owners would chime in with their observations in an attempt to shed light on another question about Lefever guns. So I am still hoping for more replies, and I might bring this Thread back to the top once in a while to continue trying to solve another mystery, to either confirm the status quo, or to debunk something that may be incorrect.

Any serious Lefever collector who has been paying attention would know that there are a number of factory original guns that show some deviation, or vary from "standard" factory checkering patterns for a given grade. Here's a pic of the lower guard tang area and checkering on an original straight grip H Grade Lefever that I picked up awhile back for parts. Anyone can see that the checkering pattern used on this H Grade is clearly much different than the photo of the same area in the picture of the long tang H Grade that I posted here in my first post.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, but this photo says it in only two words... You're wrong.



I'm hoping that this post shows up soon, instead of appearing 3 to 5 days after I submitted it. I submitted a post in Darryl's Hun's at below zero Thread nearly a week ago, and it still hasn't appeared.

One thing I think we forget is that LeFever gun may be all over the place because Uncle Dan wanted them that way or had no choice. He seemed to be constantly tweaking them. Plus what was the turnover in employees? Did the same stocker or checker do every stock, the same person do every grade from H to what ever you could afford? And the standard seemed to change slightly every time a new grade was introduced. In part these were nearly handmade, semi-custom finished (made) gun for the most parts with quality control more about function, than finish and features like seen on higher grade guns do appear on lower grade guns. What if the checker decided to try a new pattern that was used on a higher grade gun on a lower grade gun? Would we know why this was done. Or was the labor turnover so great, that explains a lot of what we see. I was always told that LeFever was short on capitol and that implied he was short on materials which was to explain seeing Damascus barrels on a gun which should only have twist or steel barrels. Maybe these odd guns are parts clean out guns, maybe being frugal and using up every last barrel blank explains the twist/Damascus combos or dolls head barrels on a DS. LeFever are not a mess but they tend to be a lot of different features in guns of the same grade.

By the way my G grade does not have a stamp on the stock. Not conclusive I know, as I have others with and without a stamping on the stock. It would just help it, if it was stamped. So it might be restocked, but it has all the lines of a factory stock but no proof that it is original. I just see many pistol to straight grip stock conversions, which never get the lines right. And LeFever had a straight grip style that is distinctive to me. Perhaps the "stocker" knew hat he was doing and made it correctly. Personally I hate restocking LeFevers and would not bother if I could avoid them. That top tang always gave me a bit of a fight to get it just right. Other might enjoy them. They can have my share. I have been putting off a restock job on one of my guns for 15 years so far. Only 15 more to go.