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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 601 Likes: 39
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 601 Likes: 39 |
I once owned a post war preunification 12 ga 203E that was marked Merkel Freres Suhl (no ATM marking, & if I remember correctly 1976 proof date & GDR proof marks). I always assumed it was standard GDR production for the French speaking market.
Last edited by Brittany Man; 12/10/17 09:47 AM.
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,166 Likes: 321
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 3,166 Likes: 321 |
"So is Gebr�der Merkel sourcing components, labour, etc. from Paris & St.-Etienne or were those just satellite store fronts?" The ad says "usine" (factory) and the description includes manufacturing the usual items gun makers in Saint Etienne made - bicycles, sewing machines, motorcycles, etc. Here's a post card showing the factory:
Last edited by Argo44; 11/20/22 10:41 PM.
Baluch are not Brahui, Brahui are Baluch
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,822 Likes: 194
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,822 Likes: 194 |
Dave, which proof facility's marks are worn on your 1933 example? With the stamp of "ALLEMAGNE" for Germany on the left side, it gives the appearance that Merkel Frères ATM had a shop in Suhl. So I still wonder what effort was applied where? Cheers, Raimey rse
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,383 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,383 Likes: 106 |
Raimey, from your first photo, I would guess that while ATM produced guns, they didn't build Merkels from the bottom up. "Licences Merkel frères" . . . licensed to sell or to make? I'd guess the former. Although Dave's gun with the ATM logo on the bottom of the receiver . . . maybe they did some finishing on guns they received from Merkel?
It will be interesting to hear about the proofmarks on Dave's gun.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,822 Likes: 194
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,822 Likes: 194 |
These are Argo's images by the way.
Lovely mixing of countries: Austrian tube steel on the wares of a German compagnie in the language of French?
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,002 Likes: 65
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,002 Likes: 65 |
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,002 Likes: 65
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,002 Likes: 65 |
This one has this extra pair of ivory beads for a total of four. Nice light 12 gauge just at a hair under 6 lbs. 5 oz.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,822 Likes: 194
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,822 Likes: 194 |
Yeah, typical serial number, bore and Louis Kelber's initials on the bottom of the lower tube. The remainder of the marks will be under the wood. But the possibility exists that the lower rung Merkel offerings were brought to an "in the white" state in St. Étienne / Loire and sent directly to the Suhl proof facility, then badged and completed in Suhl. I would say that Gebrüder Merkel was getting much more than just money for granting a license to a French manufacturing concern. I just don't remember that many Böhler steel tubes on St. Étienne wares.
Cheers,
Raimey rse
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,383 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,383 Likes: 106 |
The visible proofmarks are certainly German. Lower rung? Raimey, if the very first shots of what I assume to be ATM catalog copy represent what they actually sold, that's pretty clearly not a lower rung gun.
All of it does make one wonder just how excited the French might have been about German guns in the between the wars years. Not very pleasant memories from the Great War. And considering that back in the 20's, Verney-Carron was being promoted by French ace of aces Rene Fonck, who inscribed across his full page photo: "Le gibier tombe comme boches!" ("The birds fall like Krauts!")
Last edited by L. Brown; 12/10/17 10:36 AM.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1 |
Here is a more advanced design that is as French as please help????..... You can think of it as uglier version of Strum Ruger Over-Under..... Very advanced design with sliding breech lockup and large frame allowing for strength to deal with extra pressure of 28ga cartridge and implementation of light weight barrels. It is very ugly so it will take someone strong-willed to use it.
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