doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "Shifting Sands"

You should read the article "Shifting Sands" in this months E-Mag by Diggory Hadoke. It speaks to the ever present issue of the decline in side by side guns, especially English guns.
As an owner of several English guns I have sadly came to the realization that my investments are now ever going to pay out. So I have resigned myself to the fact that either I sell and take the loss and have regret till my last day or let my "Heirs" sell them.
Just wondering how you guys feel about the American doublegun market? I have bee thinking about buying a Parker or maybe a Winchester 21 20 bore and wonder if I will live to regret this decision.
I have a friend who loves English "Best" guns, especially a Boss. But every time he buys his first thought is "Can I sell it later and get my money back".
I am not thinking like that, I buy on the whim because I like the gun or the Maker. Should I change how I look at things now?

I acquired my few double guns because they intrigued me. It was, and still is, a matter of how they move, their balance, their design, and their quality. It was also a fascination with the period and the place they came from. They connected with some innermost elements of my existence. Reselling them has never part of the ownership process. For me these things have far greater value than just money. I’ve never considered them an investment.

I used to think long and hard about the ability to resell later, knowing I might find something I like more later on. I am close to 70 and have a few guns, frankly a younger me never thought I'd be able to own. I'd like to think my family will be able to get close to what I paid but if not I have enjoyed them for several years so I am ok with a loss, hoping it won't be too great. Right now I am more concerned about the fate of our nation.

Exactly how I feel about them. If I was looking for an investment, there are many better, more liquid things to invest in.

Everything can be bought low and sold high. The question is do we have the time and energy to learn to do it well with any particular category of item. My business career was spent buying things and selling them. I devoted 40 plus hours a week to that for over 30 years. I still occasionally made mistakes, even at the end. I buy guns because i like them. My heirs can worry about the ROI.

acquiring, enjoying and then passing happiness on to others is fun and entertaining along the way...

and if you loose money on a gun, well consider it to be a cost of recreation...

This proves that my wife is right in limiting the amount I have at any one time. Domestic risk management:)

I mainly wind up just renting guns.

Guns are not an investment anymore than antiques or muscle cars of my youth. I have bought a few English and Spanish doubles to enjoy, in part because the prices are so depressed. Most in the UK are down by half from a decade ago. So I buy them and enjoy them, use them and not worry about their value after I’m done with them. Invest in stocks, land or other things but enjoy guns for what they. Just neat old things which go bang, bang.

ky, except there are two magic words in the gun investment world...one is colt and the other is winchester...shotguns excluded, for some reason, i do not understand...

Having plunged in with the £12 winning bid on the Parker-Hale 12 bore BLE with chopper lump barrels I mentioned on the Heronshaw thread I will try to be philosophical if I fail to re-coup the £15 (with buyer’s commission) it owes me.

Mind you, it will cost me over double that to shoot 50 sporting clays to find out that it shoots better than I do.

Considering all the present challenges we all seem to be facing as a free people, the loss or gain on a few minor prized-possessions strikes me as being fairly trivial in the scheme of things. That said, I am still gnawing on buying yet another (an even less-practical one w/hammers) but... will likely wait now to see how the elections here go in November.

Life is short.
Buy what you want, shoot it, enjoy it, and live.The end comes soon enough.

Ed you forget Browning and Parker. But buying names are a poor investment. And condition is everything. Plus too many upgrades and refinished guns have flooded the market with fake rare guns. I bought an Upgraded 42 Pigeon Grade to match my real Pigeon grade. I know who did the upgrade. It was bought for money not as large as a real gun would command but well above a standard gun. I had the word upgrade engraved on the gun under the pigeon so there could be no attempt at subterfuge down the road. I gave it to my middle son and he shoots skeet with it. It is a nice looking gun but not a real pigeon grade 42 worth several thousand dollars.

I agree 100% with what Felix says here. I bought all of mine either because they looked good or handled well and also I bought them to shoot. I have never considered my "collection" an investment. And I do have a few nice pieces, to me at least. Merkle, BSS sidelock are my two favorites. Also a Winchester 23 in 20 that I like and shoot well. Along with a BSS boxlock in 20. All of them are shooters!!

The market for some Parkers, Fox, Lefever and Smith seems strong based on recent auction results, especially small bores. Sterlingworths, Smith Field, Parker Trojans and Lefever H's have moved down in market price mostly due to the availability caused by the internet in recent years. The lower graded guns like the Fox A, Parker VH, GH, PH, Smith Ideal, Gr2, Gr3 and Lefever F and G market prices are unchanged for many years unless in very high condition. Restored examples also get very little interest and the market seems slow. High condition to mint original examples still generate much interest and prices keep pace or exceed inflation.

Mike, the realization that you now have is a result of a mistake in the beginning. Thinking of them as investments, when purchasing, was wrong thinking, IMHO. They should have been bought for the same reason you would buy a book, or a boat ......... to enjoy. Period. What's left of them after that enjoyment has passed is salvage value. If you want to worry over lost investment value put a pencil to your next new automobile or truck purchase. As Nitrah said, there are a lot more things to wring your hands over than lost $$$ in a gun.

Fine English guns have been overpriced for as long as I have been interested in S X Ss. There's just no way possible to get $80K+ more enjoyment out of hunting with a Purdey, Boss or Woodward than I can out of my nice Parker, Fox and LC Smith guns.

The decline in the English gun market doesn't bother me one whit. It only gives me increased opportunity to own a very nice one at a much more reasonable cost.

So, how does one go about purchasing one these English “bargains” today? There are very few where I live so it’s difficult to lay hands on them.

One suggestion would be to contact Steve Bertram (SKB), here on this forum, and talk with him about what you want. Steve puts nice English guns up for sale from time to time, as he imports them from England. He has two on the For Sale forum now, for example. He frequents the English auction sites and bids on guns. With the knowledge of what you desire in a gun he can look for what you want specifically.

English guns are certainly going for prices much lower than they were. Top names and those of high quality should always keep their value but since the talk of the ban on lead shot here those guns of lower quality or with some with damascus barrels have taken a knock in price. A plain boxlock non-ejector with no issues will go for next to nothing. Talking to one Gun Dealer the other day he told me he doesn't take in second hand guns unless being sold on commission following a family death. Another Dealer I know has what he calls his scrap pile and showed me a Claborough sidelock non-ejector; fairly well used and sleeved by Westley Richards on the pile because it has a broken firing pin and the cost of repair would outway the £50 or so he could get for it. To top that I was given a rather nice Thomas Bland hammer gun, nitro proofed with damascus barrels, because he said he couldn't sell it even though it has no issues. I am buying guns now because I like them and adding to my collection and not bothering about the investment problem. Best investments here seem to be those classed as antiques which require no certification and muzzle loaders. With the pound to dollar situation as it is at present now is the time to go looking for bargains on this side of the pond rather than investments and enjoy using a decent gun at an affordable price. I'm having fun looking for them! Lagopus.....